Monday, June 25, 2007

Wisdom In The Fog


My point about "work ethic" is one I've argued many times. It's called an ethic because it benefits employers and we tend to make a virtue out of anything that makes us exploitable, like patriotism and piety. Real ethics tend to cost money and get in the way of exploitation and are, as we see every day in the news, ignored.
Captain Fogg

17 Comments:

At 6:07 PM, June 25, 2007 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Real smart comment dumb ass.

"Real ethics tend to cost money and get in the way of exploitation and are, as we see every day in the news, ignored."

I think I may have to bestow on you the Cog of the day award.

Sociological concept according to Fogg. Who relates money as having 'value'.

Our system uses money. Money is not a real way to measure anything.
It is a good way to punish people though by withholding it from them.
Money is a dead end.
Technology is destroying the Price System.
Money is an antique concept.

 
At 10:55 PM, June 25, 2007 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

Good though Capt...

When you think about it, your comments are right on: those things that are "valued" make people more exploitable.

I thought skip would agree with you -- as opposed to the comments he made.

 
At 6:58 AM, June 28, 2007 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Sievert: Do you count beads when you recite this stuff?

RR: Skip has a vested interest in promoting a revolution and an economic system that can only be promoted by violence and the overthrow of our government. Anything that doesn't promote the notion of forcibly stripping everyone of their property and handing over control to a bunch of "scientists" meets with insults, mockery and the sort of incoherent fugue about technology destroying money that you see here.

There is a reason that after the better part of a century, the adherents of this tired Utopian notion of eliminating exploitation and scarcity by eliminating money as a medium of exchange and installing some oligarchy to apportion whatever replaces wealth and doubtless some Gestapo to make sure nobody works outside the system are only a handful of misfit mumblers and pathetic pamphleteers.

Huge, overarching and simplistic doctrines have lost their luster in the last century or so as the world begins to see how they lead to worse things than they were designed to cure. I don't think this one would be nearly as good as Marxism/Leninism at being the foundation of a free society and that's why this relic of depression era politics remains the province of crackpots.

II: Thank you for quoting me and I'm sorry it's so difficult to have a discussion here because of this resident troll. He hangs out in many places and all suffer for it. He uses every on-line medium including social networking sites to relentlessly hawk his "Technocracy." He's everyone's friend until you express doubts and then he calls you "dumb ass."

 
At 9:58 AM, June 28, 2007 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Skip,

Why don't you explain what's so problematic about Fogg's observation?

 
At 2:43 PM, June 28, 2007 , Blogger skip sievert said...

"My point about "work ethic" is one I've argued many times. It's called an ethic because it benefits employers and we tend to make a virtue out of anything that makes us exploitable, like patriotism and piety. Real ethics tend to cost money and get in the way of exploitation and are, as we see every day in the news, ignored."
--- REAL ETHICS TEND TO COST MONEY AND GET IN THE WAY OF EXPLOITATION AND ARE, AS WE SEE EVERY DAY IN THE NEWS, IGNORED.

My complaint is the taking for granted that society is the way it is, and is not going to change. It also presupposes that we will always have a Price System. It ignores the larger reality of being brainwashed within the context of our Price System. Fogg does not only endorse the current system, he sees no other way to do 'business'.
This formulates the problem within an abstract concept context that is purely confusing, and says that the current 'money' system is the real system that will always determine things.
There is just enough confused reality in this statement of Foggs to make it sound like it might be truthful to some degree. It is pure divide and conquer. It is not thoughtful. It does not get at the basic problem. It is an entertainment.
All this kind of thinking does though is to keep people in the hypnotic mode of relating to the system as it is.
I gave up explaining things to Fogg, or trying to because he has a set of ideas in his head already.
He does not get what Technocracy is about at all, but relates it to nonsense/make believe stuff.
Thats why I think he is a dumb ass.

He can not process new information.

 
At 6:05 PM, June 28, 2007 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

If you have any ability at all Mr. Sievert, it lies in your facility at forcing any statement whatever into the Procrustian bed of your pet economic doctrine.

Ethical behavior, in as much as it promotes the common good, can be said to have value independent of any means of economic exchange or indeed energy credits, yet it is corruptible by money. That observation is hardly controversial or unique to me. Perhaps that's what annoys you but really I don't give a damn.

Money is here, whether you measure it in ounces or kilowatts or real estate or numbers on a piece of paper and the process of exchanging one thing or service for another is likely to be around for some time whether you or I like it and commerce will likely facilitated by some fungible token of value or certificate of title or ownership. If technology can be seen to be destroying money, it's only by smoking whatever it is you're smoking unless you're referring to counterfeiting.


My distrust stems not from the details of your proposed moneyless state, but from the assumption it seems to share with other dogmas: that evil stems from capital or the individual ownership of capital or the abstract tokens used to document capital, and not from the basic corruptibility and cupidity of humans. But I'm not here to discuss economic theory with you or any other humorless ideologue. Your "system," despite your assurances of manifest destiny, is not going to be voted into existence any more than Marx's workers paradise could have been and, if you think you can do away with money without doing away with private property, you definitely are smoking something. This all smells like a revolution. call me a dumb ass or a smart ass, but I like democracy and detest revolutions.

Oh yes, if you value your antique money so little, give it away - otherwise STFU

 
At 8:22 AM, July 03, 2007 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Discontent in Civilization:

The basic idea in Discontent in Civilization is the understanding of culture as a tool to neutralize aggression. This is achieved by turning aggression back against the ego, and the instrument for this inversion is the superego. Freud writes:



"Aggressiveness is introjected, internalized, it is, in point of fact, sent back to where it came from, that is, it is directed against his own ego. There it is taken over by a portion of the ego, which sets itself over against the rest of the ego as super-ego, and which now, in the form of conscience, is ready to put into action against the ego the same harsh aggressiveness that the ego would have liked to satisfy upon other, extraneous individuals. The tension between the harsh super-ego and the ego that is subjected to it, is called by us the sense of guilt; it expresses itself as a need for punishment. Civilization therefore obtains mastery over the individuals dangerous desire for aggression by weakening and disarming it and by setting up an agency within him to watch over it, like a garrison in a conquered city."

(Freud, SE IX, p. 250.)



By means of identification he takes the unattackable authority (...of the father...) into himself. The authority now turns into his super-ego and enters into possession of all the aggressiveness which a child would have liked to exercise against it. The child’s ego has to content itself with the unhappy role of the authority – the father – who has been thus degraded. Here, as so often, the real situation is reversed: ‘If I were the father and you were the child, I should treat you badly.’ The relationship between the super-ego and the ego is a return, distorted by a wish, of the real relationships between the ego, as yet undivided, and an external object. That is typical, too. But the essential difference is that the original severity of the super-ego does not – or does not so much – represent the severity which one has experienced from him (the father), or which one attributes to him; it represents rather one’s own aggressiveness towards him. If this is correct, we may assert truly that in the beginning conscience arises through the suppression of an aggressive impulse, and that it is subsequently reinforced by fresh suppressions of the same kind.

Civilization and its Discontent, p. 76. Freud, SE IX, p. 255 (German)



“It regards reality as the sole enemy and as the source of all suffering, with which it is impossible to live, so that one must break off all relations with it if one is to be in any way happy. The hermit turns his back on the world and will have no truck with it. But one can do more than that; one can try to re-create the world, to build up in its stead another world in which its most unbearable features are eliminated and replaced by others that are in conformity with one‘s own wishes. But whoever, in desperate defiance, sets out upon this path to happi­ness will as a rule attain nothing. Reality is too strong for him. He becomes a madman, who for the most part finds no one to help him in carrying through his delusion. It is asserted, how­ever, that each one of us behaves in some respect like a paranoiac, corrects some aspect of the world which is unbear­able to him by the construction of a wish and introduces this delusion into reality. A special importance attaches to the case in which this attempt to procure a certainty of happiness and a protection against suffering through a delusional remolding of reality is made by a considerable number of people in common. The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass­-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such”.

(Standard Edition, XXI, p. 81)

 
At 3:28 PM, July 03, 2007 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Scheiße bleibt Scheiße, selbst wenn sie vom Papst ist.

(anonym)

 
At 6:27 PM, July 08, 2007 , Blogger skip sievert said...

You like Democracy ?
Ha ha.

Here is an article done by a member of Technocracy recently.

Lest anyone be lulled into economic euphoria by the recent upsurge in stock values, let's take a sobering stroll into reality, courtesy of the web site Factbook sponsored by that most esteemed of American institutions, the Central Intelligence Agency, which offers us a table on who of 163 nations is where on the financial balance sheet (2006 estimates).

"On top of the black ink side of the heap we have that nation that provides most of our manufactured goods (and which is now consuming 32 million of acres of irreplaceable virgin forest annually to meet demand for wood products, largely from us), China, on the plus side at $179.1 billion. Running a close second is Japan, at $174.4 billion. Rounding out the top five we have Germany, Russia (hey, I thought the Cold War and the breakup of the Soviet Union put them out of action), and — no surprise here — Saudi Arabia.
"Even impoverished Bangladesh, whose per capita energy consumption equals one-half of one percent of the U.S., is in the plus column, albeit at a modest $339 million.

"Now let's move to the dismal side of the chart. Which nation is most submerged in a sea of red ink?

"Hint: It's the nation that spends more on military hardware and has more foreign bases than every other industrial nation combined, yet whose troops continue to be mired in a dead-end war against homemade IEDs and suicide bombers. It's the nation that spends more per capita on health care yet ranks 36th in infant mortality (humble Cuba ranks 34th). It's the nation whose students continually score dead last in science and math against every other industrial nation.

"It's also the nation that is currently outsourcing over $400 billion per year in government contracts to private corporations (even the Homeland Security Department has on its website a corporate grab bag in its "Open for Business" section, offering lucrative opportunities to those so patriotically inclined as to rush to keep the country safe at a profit). This includes over 100,000 mercenary troops in Iraq, and over half of these contracts are not open to competitive bidding — the bulk of them awarded to heavy contributors to Republican candidates. There are now more people in the private sector working on government contracts, with little oversight, than are actually employed by the government, which is subject to constant scrutiny.
"Cut big government? Sure, and turn it over to corporate enterprise. I believe it was Mussolini who defined fascism as the merger of corporations and government (he called it corporatism).

"The biggest loser? You guessed it. This is the nation co-led by a multimillionaire (getting more so by the day thanks to his connections with certain aforementioned contractors) who blithely observed that deficits are meaningless. Yep, it's the good old land of the free, which stands at the dead bottom of the pile at a whopping minus $862.3 billion and still sinking.

"Conclusion: Our nation and people are slowly being bled to death by corporate greed and government corruption, the vast profit takings of which account for the abysmal financial state of the country — and that deficit that is so meaningless? It is costing the vast majority of us more and more, everyday and in every way.

Sincerely, Stephen L. Doll, Ormond Beach, Florida"

 
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