Wednesday, April 19, 2006

Fundies Gone Wild

(Fred Phelps)


From The Guardian -
Anti-gay church hounds military funerals
Julian Borger in Washington
Tuesday April 18, 2006
The Guardian
New laws have been passed in the United States to counter the activities of a bizarre church that has been disrupting military funerals with anti-gay protests on the grounds that the soldiers died fighting for a land that tolerates homosexuality.

Since last year, the Westboro Baptist church, based in Topeka, Kansas, has been picketing funerals of soldiers killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, waving signs saying, "Thank God for Dead Soldiers", "Thank God for IEDs [improvised explosive devices - roadside bombs]", and "God Hates Cripple Soldiers", while yelling that dead US troops will rot in hell.
The church - which consists almost exclusively of Fred Phelps, a 76-year-old preacher, and 75 members of his extended family - is definitely not a peace movement. Rather, it celebrates the violent deaths of soldiers and marines who died, it says, defending a licentious nation.
Today, it is planning to picket the funeral of an army sergeant, Daniel Sesker, from Ogden, Iowa, who was killed by a roadside bomb on April 6, near Tikrit. "Where in God's name did he get the idea that it was noble to fight in a fag army for a fag nation that's on the short path to eternal destruction?" asks the church's website, http://www.godhatesfags.com/. "That's right: his parents, his family, his 'friends', his state and his country; they are to blame for the fact that Sesker is now in a million pieces, the appropriate punishment for their filthy manner of life."
Horrified at the church's activities, nine states have approved laws that impose restrictions on demonstrations at funerals and burials. More than 20 other states are considering similar legislation, and the US Congress will be asked to consider possible federal laws next month. None of the new laws involves an outright ban on funeral protests, as that would clash with the constitution's first amendment, guaranteeing free speech. Instead, most stipulate that demonstrators must stay a certain distance from a funeral, and limit their protests to an hour before and an hour after the ceremony.
Some laws prohibit the display of "any visual image that conveys fighting words". Similar laws have been passed in the past to stop anti-abortion protests outside private homes or family planning clinics, and have survived supreme court challenges. The Westboro Baptist church says its constitutional rights are being
trampled by the new laws, and claims it is thinking of ways to challenge them.
It claims to have conducted 25,000 pickets since its formation in 1991, almost all of them anti-gay. Mr Phelps first drew national attention when he protested at the funeral of Matthew Shepard, a gay man beaten to death in Wyoming in 1998. The church reckons its spends $250,000 (£140,000) a year on air fares and other protest expenses. The bills are paid by the family, which includes 10 lawyers among Mr Phelps's 13 children. Three of his offspring have broken ties with the family. One, his daughter Dortha, told the Knight Ridder news agency: "I felt like I was being controlled, and I didn't have any freedom."
Before the new laws were passed, several thousand bikers, many of them Vietnam veterans, formed a group calling itself the Patriot Guard Riders, to attend military funerals and form a cordon around the protesters to shield them from view of the mourners, and to drown out their shouts by revving their engines. Mr Phelps seems to relish the fury he stirs. He likes to quote from the Gospel according to St Luke: "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the son of man's sake."
Yet another example of why fundamentalists have no place in civilized society.

At least this guy is an intellectually honest fundie. Most Republicans cry about America's lack of morality while, simultanously, lambasting anyone who dares critique the morally upright and always perfect America, unable to grasp the glaring contradiction of their opinions. It is, of course, because only they are allowed to critique America. Anything beyond their bigoted, hateful complaints is irresponsible debate that adds nothing to the discussion.

I can't wait to hear the whining that barring this quack from funerals constitutes "persecution" of Christians.

47 Comments:

At 5:42 AM, April 19, 2006 , Anonymous Roderick said...

From the looks if it Mr. Phelps may be one of those self-hating homosexuals. LOL

 
At 7:31 AM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Possum said...

There is nothing Christian about saying that "God is punishing our country because of Gays by killing our soldiers."

There is no basis for this in the New Testament. The contrary is true: LOVE the sinner, hate the sin. This guy is nuts and will have to answer for his actions "in the name of God".

People do all kinds of disgusting and horrible things in the name of God. Sometimes they are scorned, sometimes people write books and make entire religions out of them.

 
At 9:56 AM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Possum,

Where does it say "love the sinner, hate the sin" in the Bible? How do you divorce the sin from the sinner? The absurdity of that proposition is astounding - "oh that Adolf, we love him, we just hate all those murderous, conquering sins he committed."

That is the most intellectually dishonest, hollow bunch of crap that so-called Christians have been peddling as a pathetic p.r. ploy to sound tolerant as they spew hatred against only a small class of sinners.

Why isn't what Fred Phelps doing in line with Christianity? It's no more in or out of line than the violent, tyrranical vision of Christianity being peddled by Falwell, Robertson and Bush.

 
At 10:21 AM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

Well, if it wasn't such a serious issue, that would almost be comical.

But I don't think you can point to one obvious wacko and paint everyone with "fundamentalist" beliefs with a broad brush. That's unfair and circular. You get mad when Neocons point to Osama and say all Arabs are full of hate, but then you to turn around and do the EXACT same thing.

You confuse the teachings of Jesus with the religion that has developed as a result of human corruption and self-interest. Under your view, anyone who is not extremely permissive is a bigot filled with bile and hatred, and that's simply not the case. You constanstly lambast all religion, and I think that's very short-sighted, because there are some people out there who are religious but not full of hatred. Under your view, we should be accepting gays, Adolph or any other sinner no matter what they do.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is probably an oversimplififed summation of the story of the prostitute who Jesus saved from stoning. He asked the Pharisees "let he among you who is sinless cast the first stone," and then told the woman "sin no more!" So he showed love for her, but also condemnation of the sin. It's like what parents do. They love you, but they'll tell you when you fuck up!!

Damn, you just got served. :-)

 
At 11:22 AM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

I didn't get served, because you created an argument I did not make and then responded to it. That's rookie shit from Debate 101 - the straw man. :-)

There is no confusion about Jesus' teachings. I have read enough of the Bible to know that the actions of the so-called Christians in this country bear little resemblance to the teachings of Christ. He was quite an amazing man. The only American who ever lived his teachings was MLK. No one in America before or since has respected Christianity and gave it dignity the way he did.

It is the mouthpieces of the Christian community these days who accept nutjobs like Phelps as spokesmen for their religion. So let them answer for that. It's no different than the Muslims who allow Bin Laden to be a spokesmen for theirs. Indeed, the rhetoric of Phelps and Bin Laden does not differ materially.

As to the point about fundamentalists, by their very definition they have no place in civilized society. Here is the definition of fundamentalist -
"A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

People who are intolerant of other views are incapable of playing in the sandbox called society. Since society always includes people who are different, whether it be racial, religious or whatever other difference, it is impossible to have civilized, orderly society if people are unable to make compromises and tolerate differences. Fundamentalists are incapable of doing this, regardless of the religious tradition from which they sprout. Fundamentalism is the antitheses of individualism.

It's not my view that says everyone must be accepted - that is the logic of those who would pass off this absurd notion of "love the sinner, hate the sin".

Unless you tell me that Christians should love Adolf Hitler, you lose your argument. How about Bin Laden? Shouldn't Christians love him, but just hate his misguided sins?

 
At 12:00 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Gandhi said...

Christ says,

"Love your neighbour as you would love yourself"

"Do not do onto others what you would not have done to you"

"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY

"If you are stucken on one cheek, offer him the other"

Or something like that. It's being a few years since I read the gospels.

Christ preached a message of love. it's a pity Mr. Phelps didn't listen. Again, as Christ said to the Pharisee's, "You obey the law to the letter yet ignore the heart of it" (Again, something like that)

 
At 1:20 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

Gandhi,

Are you really 17? Geez. You're pretty heavy to be so young!!

II,

I really don't see the strawman I "created." But oh well. :-)

 
At 2:01 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

You suggested that I was painting a broad brush about Christianity and I did no such thing. Your entire argument rests upon the premise that I confused the teachings of Jesus, which I did not. I am still waiting to hear if Christians are supposed to love Hitler and Bin Laden.

 
At 3:05 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Gandhi said...

Yes, Christians, true Christians, should love Bin Laden and Hitler. They should pray that they should return to the path of righteousness. It lies at the heart of Liberalism as well by the way, the belief that man has the ability within himself to change and reform. By rights, every Christian should be a pacifist.

Justin,

Yes, I am seventeen! I'm a very much in the closet about about a lot of what I post about. There are more like me, who are incredibly frustrated with our respective ages. www.globalteen.net is a major gathering place for like minds, as is myviewoftheleft.blogspot.com another example of a teenager with a passion for politics (Although I don't share his beliefs in the slightest)

P.S- I am an agnostic. I regard Christianity to be a life philosophy. All of the religions I have studied have left a positive mark on me.

 
At 3:46 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

Mr Phelps look as if he is sitting on a gigantic dildo.

And frankly, I doubt if those people who are all huffing and puffing about him picketing military funerals gave a rat's ass when he was picketing Aids funerals.

:-), StS

 
At 3:46 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

"looks"

:-), StS

 
At 6:48 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Chris said...

Push comes to shove, this guy's a boob. Religion and rhetoric aside, what he's doing is wrong. Too bad we can't pass laws as simple as "Respect your neighbor, dammit."

 
At 6:51 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Chris said...

Oh, I forgot to mention... When I first saw your website, I misread "Fundies Gone Wild" as "Undies Gone Wild." I saw the picture of Mr. Phelps sitting there grinning like an idiot and wondered just what kind of undies a guy could wear that could make him look that goofy... Then I read the headline correctly, and the world made sense to me again.

 
At 8:10 PM, April 19, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Gandhi,

You are quite impressive. I have come across a few intelligent teenage bloggers, but they are all right-wingers and it is frightening to me that kids could be so hardened and mean at such a young age. It is impressive to see you taking on such heavy topics at a young age.

 
At 5:36 AM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger Gandhi said...

Doesn't stop me from getting shamelessly drunk though on occassion...

 
At 9:21 AM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

Gandhi,

Wow, man, you're headed for a very happy and fulfilling life. Trust me. You are outstanding. Nothin' wrong with getting drunk, either. I was drunk at the Dodger game last night! I agree with your view of Christianity as a life philosophy. Hey, can you recommend a good book on Gandhi????

II,

Yes, Christians are supposed to love Hitler and Bin Laden. Gandhi is correct. We should also be praying for them. Praying good things on those (that are alive) that harm you (or others) is an incredibly liberating experience. Try it. Think of a person you HATE and then pray good things for them for the next 5 days. That hate'll be gone . . .and u will be free.

I think we're on the same side of the coin, really. You know I'm into the teachings and philosophy of Jesus, not the controlling doctrine concocted by later politicians like Emporer Constantine. I know you are the same way.

 
At 10:36 AM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

BoB -

We are most definitely on the same page. Anyone who enjoys Alan Watts is enlightened.

I can honestly say I don't hate anyone. There are people whose company I certainly do not enjoy or who will never have my respect, but hate is a very strong and toxic word. I know we agree that anyone who is truly religious (in the spiritual sense of the word) could never be hateful. That is why it is apparent that the so-called Christians of America have zero to do with the teachings of Christ. You can't love your enemy by bombing them.

 
At 11:22 AM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger Gandhi said...

To hate someone requires a lot of energy, something I'm not willing to give. For example, I don't hate Bush, or the President of Iran (I'm not going to bother spelling his name!); I pity them. They are both, indirectly or directly making things worse for the Iranian people and damaging their road to democracy.

What are the teachings and philoshies of Christ? Lets not forget we are receiving a very one sided account stemming from political motivations. There are said to be fifty known gospels, It has been argued the Vatican has copies of them all, yet we only have access to a few of them besides the four we have in the New Testament. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but to truly study Bible History would lead you down a very dulling and depressing path. By and large though, that Jesus dood was pretty cool :-)

P.S- I'd reccomend reading the Gospel of Judas

Justin,

"Gandhi An Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments With Truth" is his autobiography. I'd also reccomend "Gandhi: A Life" by Yogesh Chadha...

 
At 12:07 PM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger Possum said...

Thanks BoB and Ghandi, good points.

II- love the sinner:
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Matthew 5 Love your enemy.

Mark 12:30 Love your neighbor

John 13:34 Commandment to love one another as I have loved you

Love and Grace
Ephesians 2:3-5 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ((I)by grace you have been saved),

The point of being a real Christian is to have a love for all man. Even Hitler. We are all sinners. We are all loved by Jesus even though we sin. He takes the sin.

That's what the GRACE factor is in that we do not deserve the love because we have sinned.

The argument presented of "love the sinner, hate the sin" is a summary of how Jesus views us and how we as disciples are to not judge but love all others (back to John 13:34).

 
At 1:09 PM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Possum,

Then how can you be Christian and pro-war?

 
At 1:17 PM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger The Best [ Ghostface ] said...

They just can not let the dead have a peaceful funeral can they.

 
At 1:50 PM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Best,

They can't let anyone have a peaceful anything. It's as if they can't be happy if they aren't insulting someone. If their theology says every human being on earth is a sinner, then what on earth do their protests accomplish other than fomenting evil and hatred?

 
At 8:46 PM, April 20, 2006 , Blogger The Best [ Ghostface ] said...

I hear you Intellectual insurgent.

 
At 2:55 PM, April 23, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

Possum,

in practical terms, and stripped of all the pseudo-mystical mumbo-jumbo, is there a concrete difference between "hating the sinner" and "hating the sin"? Or is that just an exculpatory rhetorical figleaf to mask bigotry and the warm joy of lecturing everyone else from a self-created position of moral superiority?

:-), StS

 
At 6:55 AM, April 24, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

ding ding ding!

Survey says -- Stalin's a winner!

The philosophy of Christ is unique and if practiced, worthy of praise… but the dogma, mysticism, bigotry and hocus-pocus that has surrounded it for the last 1800 years turns its practical effects into little more than an us-vs.-them tool that’s used to set up its adherents as morally superior, and hence worthy of “leadership” in our society.

This is why you won’t find an atheist or agnostic in Congress… or elected to practically any office in the country. Somehow being a sanctified bigot is a required characteristic of office these days.

II and Stalin are correct: a true Christian loves all. As Christ taught his concern should always be for others – without judgement.

If Christians practiced the teachings of Christ I would have no “beef” with them, but it seems they focus far more on the old Testament and the teachings of Paul than on those of their namesake. The bible is so full of contradictions in “fact” and teaching that its no wonder people like mother Teresa and Jerry Falwell can both claim the title “Christian”.

 
At 9:57 AM, April 24, 2006 , Blogger Possum said...

Reign and Stalin, your comments are justified by the actions of those who claim to be Christians and then go advocate all kinds of nutty things.

Reign is particulary sharp in the note of the dogma and judgement. That's what I keep trying to tell you: Religion isn't Jesus. Religion is man's ceremony and law applied to the teaching of Jesus.

This isn't something that can adequately be addressed pecking at a keyboard. Let me just say this:

Jesus loves everyone, everyone is a sinner according to the law except Jesus. The Grace comes that Jesus as an innocent died as a sacrifice to cover all of our sins. The only way to participate in the grace and coverage is to accept Jesus into our hearts. After acceptance of Jesus, it is a constant work to become more like him which we constantly fail at doing. Failures lead to learning. Acceptance of Christ does not make one perfect.

Judgement: there has to be a right and wrong. It is possible to judge the actions without judging the individual.

Is a child bad because they do bad things? Or are they good and occasionally do bad things?

Let me tell you what a true Christian does: he prays for Osama Bin Laden's soul. In comparision Osama wishes the Christian to die if they do not convert to Islam.

 
At 11:57 AM, April 24, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

“Religion is man's ceremony and law applied to the teaching of Jesus”

And to every other “how to live your life” teaching… e.g – Islam, Judaism, etc.

I agree with you in that Jesus professed love for all – even in the face of persecution – and that example provides a great lesson for everyone.

But we’ll quickly part company when you get into the mysticism surrounding the teaching (i.e. – him dying for “my sins”, etc.).

Yes – people do bad things… There is right and wrong in the world. But defining right and wrong in terms of Bronze Age thinking seems completely illogical to me.

We, as a society, should decide which behaviors are acceptable and which are not – qualified by the realization that everyone should be free to live and “pursue happiness” as they see fit – as long as that pursuit doesn’t trample on the rights of others to do the same. Tamper law with reason and common sense and you have the foundation of a just society in which people are free to live their lives. Base it on the 3000+ year old writing of tribesmen who were getting their asses kicked by the surrounding tribes and you end up with leaders (both political and religious) like we have today…

 
At 9:18 PM, April 24, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Possum,

I'm still waiting for the explanation on how it is possible, in light of all these comments, to be Christian and pro-war.

 
At 7:32 AM, April 25, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

"Everyone is a sinner according to the law except Jesus".

So by what rationale are you guys picking especially on certain kinds of sinners (which you do)? And by which legislature was your law enacted and subjected to the democratic process?

"Judgement: there has to be a right and wrong. It is possible to judge the actions without judging the individual."

So how do you feel about that old saw of "Judge not, lest ye be judged"? Aren't you committing a grievous sin by setting yourself up in god's place and judging away, as you do all the time? Isn't your desire for right and wrong more a reflection of your own weakness in the face of your need to pontificate? And wouldn't you agree that a political movement like theoconnery is an inversion, amounting to rape, of what Jesus actually said?

 
At 8:01 AM, April 25, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

Oh, and another question: how does all this righteousness square with outright criminality as exemplified by Abramoff, Burns, Ney, Cunningham, et al? Or are the only sins that matter the ones committed by someone who's not a supporter of repugery?

:-), StS

 
At 5:56 PM, April 25, 2006 , Blogger Craig DeLuz said...

ii,

These guys are not fundamentalists... They are hateful whackos!

And I am offended that you would associate them with those of us Christians who happen to believe in the Bible.

You and I have conversed several times via email and blog comments. Do you believe that I have no place in civilized society?

 
At 6:08 PM, April 25, 2006 , Blogger Craig DeLuz said...

ii,

Christians should love Hitler and Bin Laden. Part of that love is pointing out how what they have done is against the Word of God. And if given the opportunity, we should encourage them to receive Jesus into their hearts that they may be forgiven of their sins. (At least that what we as Christians should do.)

But even though they can be forgiven by God, they may still have to deal with the consequences of their sins on earth. (What they have sewn, so shall they reap.)

I think all of us (Christian and non-Christian) have been lucky not to have to suffer for some of the inadvisable things we have done in the past. I also would also say that we have had to pay the piper for some of those things as well.

II,

You seem like a neat person. I enjoy your writing and your reasoning.

But when it comes to Christians, I think your emotions overtake your intellect.

 
At 7:01 PM, April 25, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Craig,

If these guys are not Christians, but hateful wackos, where is the line? And, by what right do you decide who is and is not a Christian? What you are doing is the same dishonest stance that Muslims take when they say Bin Laden, et al. are not Muslims, but crazies. Who gets to decide who is and is not a member of a religion? Unless your Catholic I suppose and can excommunicate people but you would have to be a priest to do so and I don't think you're a priest. :-)

Don't take my distaste for religion against Christianity in particular. Religion as an institution and the ignorance it fosters really gets under my skin.

Perhaps you can answer the question, then, how it is possible for the Christian neo-cons of this country to be pro-war.

Thanks for stopping by. It's been a while. :-)

 
At 8:54 PM, April 25, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

Craig,

where's the difference between the nice, polite, smooth fundies like you and these "hateful wackos"?

Other than presentation, that is?

Anything of substance?

Thought not.

:-), StS

 
At 12:07 PM, April 26, 2006 , Blogger Gandhi said...

From what I've seen of Craig, he doesn't seem to be a fundie. To the contrary in fact.

 
At 4:35 PM, April 26, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

The bottom line is that religion imposes a predetermined world-view based on "revealed truth" ... You either buy into it or you don't.

If you do, they your version of good/evil is handed to you from "god".

I purport that simply isn't good for society – or the individual.

We have the ability to reason: use that ability to determine what's right and wrong... drop all the hocus pocus and the world will be a better place.

 
At 9:57 AM, May 01, 2006 , Blogger Possum said...

Stalin:
I am a sinner. I struggle with an addiction to online porn. I have aborted a child and believe that makes me a murderer.

Am I still a Christian?

The issue is that you have witnessed some people who call themselves Christians who judge harshly. They have cast the stones on the injured in spite of their own sin. It is easier to strike someone down than it is to build them up. We should point out bad behavior and work to correct it together.

Unfortunately, Christians are well known for "shooting their wounded".

Jesus was mostly hanging out with the prostitutes, tax collectors and everyday man. Not the Pharasies (think uber-righteous religious types) who he constantly derided and defeated in debates of the law.

How do we measure right and wrong you ask? By the Bible. If what is said and done can be measured as correct than we have a basis. We as Christians can point to this particular church in this article as being fundamentally flawed in their aggression and tactics versus how they should act and what they should be saying.

This leads me to another question for Reign: What is your basis for right and wrong? Good and evil? Reasoning? What feels right?

Do you realize the problems you cause when each individual gets to determine his/her version of good?

 
At 10:04 AM, May 01, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Possum,

All people define their own sense of right and wrong. If they are religious, they just rationalize away. That is how the Evangelicals of this nation are pro-war and indulge in nonsense like "do not kill" really is "do not murder". With or without religion, that will happen.

 
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