Tuesday, August 08, 2006

Following In Our Footsteps

If Iraq was not proof enough that bombing the hell out of a country does nothing to improve your security, add Israel's incursion into Lebanon to the picture. You would think the Israelis would have paid attention to the financial and military waste of time that is Iraq and learn from it, but they have not. What we are witnessing in Lebanon is Israel's Iraq.

It took Israel six days to defeat the combined armies of Egypt, Syria and misc. Arabs in 1967, but four weeks of slaughtering civilians in Lebanon has done nothing to stop Hezballah's Katyusha rockets from raining into Haifa. Israel will ultimately end up occupying part of Southern Lebanon and will create its own quagmire much like that which is currently bleeding the United States.

One must wonder how the socialist, welfare state of Israel will fund all this. The American military is going so broke it can't pay the utility bills at several bases and, given the present circumstances, I suspect that Israel will follow right in our footsteps.


At 6:59 AM, August 09, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

We are Israel. The U.S. pays most of the bills there. We control much of their policy. It is our decision to invade and keep invading.-- We also control most all the Arab governments for now.Yes all by the money/protection we provide. We pay them large amounts of money to act as we say. -- The only locals we do not control are the Iranians,and Syrians and the Lebanese.-- Israel and the U.S. want to wreck and destablize their area. Why.? To expand their control of resources and their psycological control.// I expect to see a total breakdown, and larger war soon. Even with all the money we pay our enemies ,they will bite the hand that feeds them out of pure anger at some point. There have been to many absurd things that we demand from all these players. How much humiliation can they take.?

At 9:24 AM, August 09, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

I co-sign with Skip Sievert.

Americans will pay the bill for Israel's actions in Lebanon. Guaranteed.

At some point, one of these people is going to slip over here and blow up a building her or something, then we'll wonder why.

II, you hear about these "11 Egyptian students" that are missing? "Betta watch out, folks, they are Egyptian . . ."

At 9:35 AM, August 09, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

I agree with you guys for the most part but if America can't pay its own bills, how will it pay Israel's bills?

BOB - I read about that yesterday. Very curious indeed.

At 11:13 AM, August 09, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

The situation -- world wide -- is getting out of hand fairly rapidly.

Fundamentalism found its perfect catalyst in current American and Israeli policy.

In the Lebanon/Hezbollah case, I think the Israeli's are making the problem worse -- but I do think that a military response (more limited) was the correct first step. However, not that they are committed it appears they will not be able to back out gracefully (as they may have after a 1 or 2 day retaliatory strike).

I only see things escalating.

At 11:18 AM, August 09, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

America will pay any and every bill by borrowing, until we can`t.The Chinese actually paid for the gulf war with help from others. They also pay social security etc. They buy our treasuries. Why.? Short term interest back. The trade feed back system rewards the people who play ball with us. Like Great Britain before empire collapse we are the biggest debtor nation in the world.---/// As far as so called coming here to blow things up,the powers that be lick their chops at this. Why.? What ever is destroyed must be rebuilt and repaired. In our system this is a way to make money. You did not see any simple natural memorials being built in New York. 911, was a total shot in the arm for this type of society. More bombs had to be constructed. More resources had to be dug up , so that more useless stuff could be made, to make more money.------- Ultimately this will boil down to psychology. Not money. Then the political monkeys up in the tower will start pushing buttons and running in circles, and doing even crazier things. They think they are working for god more or less. When and if the people realize who they are,and why they are doing what they do there may be hope.

At 8:50 PM, August 09, 2006 , Blogger Lucy Stern said...

It's a mess, that's for sure.

At 7:24 AM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Well we're seeing the escalation this morning - if the Brits are telling the truth. I did predict a contrived threat for this autumn, but this is something else.

Personally, I no longer give a damn about who feels humiliated or exploited or who is offended about infidels or who feels they own what. There is no excuse for blowing up airliners and no excuse for those who excuse it.

That Israel wants to destroy syria and Lebanon to expand or somehow find oil there is bullshit and that the US is forcing them to do it is bullshit. Ïsrael did not pledge to destroy Islam or any country, nor do they murder hostages or blow up airliners for sport. It's Iran pulling the stings and using Israel as a tool. There is no attempt to reach a settlement, only murder, murder murder and more murder, year after year after year. No one has ever demonized and dehumanized anyone the way these jihadists have to the infidel world and no one bears responsibility other than these religious madmen.

Those who continue to make excuses for this unrelenting terrorism against civilians are part of this Jihad, like it or not and of course none of these cynical, condescending, know it alls have anything like a solution other than perhaps mass suicide of the entire Israeli population.

At 7:37 AM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

...and of course, yesterday Kenny Boy Mehlmann goes into full attack mode on 'Defeat-ocrats', and presto, today we have a Code Red Terror Alert.

Remember, unless pugs run the government, your children will die.

At 8:54 AM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

Capt – I agree. There is a real and terrible enemy out there. I just don’t know if bombing the hell out of Lebanon or remaining in Iraq will make the problem better or worse.

Worse is the likely outcome in the near term.

Israel’s earlier incursions into Lebanon created the atmosphere that gave birth to Hezbollah. I’m not arguing that they didn’t have the right and the necessity to defend themselves, but the fact remains the tactics used have made things worse.

Part of the “solution” is to kill just the Islamic fundamentalists who use violence to implement their vision. The root cause of their affliction is an irrational belief system. Unfortunately, once insinuated into the human psyche it seems almost impossible to remove.

These people can’t be reasoned with and need to be removed from civilized society. The implementation of that solution is the problem: since you going after these nut-cases necessarily incurs damage to cities and non-combatants -- creating a backlash.

Of course, if the Lebanese government could/would stand-up to these nut-cases in their own back yard the Israelis wouldn’t have to deal with it.

As I said earlier, with the current climate I fear things will spiral out of control.

At 11:20 AM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Crankyboy said...

Question to all you out there who really just want Israel to be destroyed -- in your Israel-free world who will you blame for the endless bloodletting in the Middle East of Shi'ites and Sunnis? Of Syrians killing their own people. Between Al Qaeda and Saudi Arabia. Between Taliban killing Afghan farmers and foreign aid workers? Between Fatah and Hamas? Between Egypt and its own people. Between the Janjaweed (Sudanese Arab Muslims) killing Sudanese non-Arab Muslims. Etc, etc, etc. I guess you'll blame America then. Don't blame the hands on the trigger or detonator or machete. Blame the Jews. They made the weapons, or sold them, or loaned the money to buy them, or dressed up like Arabs and shot the weapons. Blame the Jews. It's worked for thousands of years should work for a few more thousand years.

At 11:40 AM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

huh? Who's blaming the jews? Where'd that come from?

The argument I'm making is "sometimes the cure is worse than the disease" ... No one disagrees with the fact that islamic extremism is the problem. How to address it, and curb it, is part of the debate.

I guess you'd suggest another 50 years of violence (that hasn't worked so far) as the "cure" -- I'm suggesting there may be other approaches.

I don't have the answer, but the current course of action doesn't seem to be working.

At 11:55 AM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

Ah, yes, you think some aspects of Israeli policy are in need of reflection, and you must be Adolf Hitler.

So sayeth Cranky.

At 12:47 PM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

This is the crux of the problem: a lack of willingness to examine policy.

Seems like the hammer (i.e. - an eye for an eye) is the only appropriate response to Islamic terrorism.

It's surely part of the policy, but it can't be the whole thing...

At 1:11 PM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Crankyboy said...

When a gang of criminals terrorizes your neighborhood and makes it unlivable, i.e. you have to live in the basement hiding, at some point getting rid of the gang is your top priority. Trying to not "dis" doesn't work. They'll always have an excuse to go wilding on you. What policy change would you have Israel make? They unilaterally left Lebanon 6 years ago. The U.N. even approved and were in agreement that they completely left Lebanon. Hizbollah kept importing weapons, digging tunnels and launching terror strikes in Israel. Israel unilaterally left Gaza so that the Palestinians could build a state all by themselves. They fired rockets into Israel and then killed and kidnapped soldiers. They didn't build a state, they built a state of war. After all the years arguing about this I don't understand what you want them to do and even if they did what you want would it change anything? Would terrorism on buses in Jerusalem stop? Would the rockets stop? They haven't for 58 years. So my only conclusion is not that anyone is Hitler but I just can't let eliminationist rhetoric go by without rebuttal.

At 5:01 PM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...


You still haven't explained what bombing the civilian population of Lebanon accomplishes. No one disagrees with you about the religious nutbags, but you always take it to the extreme as if, as Sharky points out, questioning Israel's behvior in any way = anti-Jewish. Those are entirely separate points that you need to distinguish in order to have an intelligent discussion. This isn't a question about whether Israel should defend itself - the discussion is about how.

At 5:45 PM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

As someone who doesn`t like the Jews,Christians,or Muslims may I comment that these belief systems,especialy Judaism, and Islam, started life as desert and mountain criminal gangs. Both take a merciless approach. Both groups have nasty ideas they preach as being real,that are lies. Both would just as soon spit as kill you if you believe differently. Both regard each other as somewhat less than human. Both are and were merciless. Both think they are commanded from their so called god to enforce their belief systems on others or kill others that don`t agree. Both have elaborate stories that they use to rationalize their inhuman cruel and humiliating lifestyle theories.
The Jews popularized the idea that they killed upwards of a million Canaanites. Commanded by their Mr.god.- Every man women and child put to the sword, their Mr.god ordered and they obeyed. This is in their Bible, they teach.
This interesting story, and many other hate filled stories are taught to the young ones in their group to build up their kinship feeling. They program their children with all these fascinating lies about the past. The story of the killed by god Egyptian babies, is one the Egyptians have a hard time relating to. Why would a god kill our babies and spare theirs,? they think. Most Jewish stories revolve around such themes. Is it any surprise that this group is not liked.? They only value Jewish life. Their stories point this out over and over again. Only their fellow cult members count.
Is it any wonder that the people in that area figured they don`t have much to lose by fighting.
I find it amazing that a criminal gang that started out as a desert and mountain cult, managed to brain wash so many into their ranks.
Same is true for Islam.
Now these two ruthless and nasty belief systems are fighting it out. I really don`t like either. Both are perfect examples of how belief destroys the beauty of living.

At 8:22 PM, August 10, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Well said Skip. Both religions are foul and disgusting and people who believe in the literal truth of either are pretty f'ing warped.

A group of religious Muslims I knew in college once spent an evening debating whether the verse that says that God turned Jews to pigs was literal or metaphorical. It was the most retarded, inane waste of brain cells I've ever seen among a group of otherwise seemingly intelligent graduate students and explains why Islam, as a religion, is in a state of rotten, putrid filth. They couldn't understand why I thought they were a bunch of retarded morons.

An Israeli friend of mine once told me that it is a mitzvah (a blessing) in Judaic law to kill the sons of Ismael, i.e. Arabs. I already thought the Old Testament was pretty disgusting and twisted, but that one completely explains how Israel has justified its continued genocide of the Palestinian community.

Those people deserve each other. They are enemies because they are mirror images of each other and can't stand what they see. As far as I am concerned, all those religious loons should feel free to kill each other on the condition that they keep the sane people out of the way. Maybe we can put some fanatic terrorist settlers, Hizballah fighters and Pat Robertson followers in a ring, kind of like a cock fight, and sell tickets to the show. In my view, that is the only value those people could possibly add to this earth.

At 6:51 AM, August 11, 2006 , Blogger Crankyboy said...

Your Israeli friend is an idiot. And I dare you or him to find in the 613 mitvot WRITTEN down to find it and point it out to me. That's just about the most ridiculous bunch of crap that I've heard. Why don't you and he read the list in crib-note form here and find that one for me.

At 7:26 AM, August 11, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

It is interesting that the Jews and the Christians are stuck with each other , so they have elaborate theories as to how they must work together, but only up to a point. Without Judaism, the underpinning of Christianity falls to pieces. It depends on the Yahwa god to form its rationale`.
Funny thing in the Christian end time Revelation, Jews all get killed or converted to Christianity.
Most Jews are aware of that little disconnect between their groups.
Ironically it may be a so called Christian power that destroys Israel.
If that were to happen they would no doubt forgive themselves. They seem to have the ability to forgive any thing. Mass murder or genocide has been done over and over with the same cheerful response by the Christians.
The Nazis were made up of Lutherans and Catholics. Hitler wanted to figure out a way to disconnect Christianity from Judaism. That can`t be done.
Hitlers speeches are remarkably similar to Bush`s.
Both Hitler and Bush were Christians.
Bush thinks the Jews will be killed soon in the Revelation end time experience.
I am happy I don`t live around the area of Israel. I hope for the best for those different believers, but I sense that all this will end badly.

At 8:10 AM, August 11, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

I'll have to sit down and read through these, but two caught my eye.

Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).


At 9:08 AM, August 11, 2006 , Blogger Chris said...

I dunno... Seems to me that both sides are acting a bit like spoiled babies at this point, bickering back and forth. Unfortunately, since the US elections in 2000, the world no longer has adult supervision.

At 3:14 PM, August 11, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

There is not , and will not be a political solution to the problems at hand. Politics is a large part of the problem. Politics is run by the corporations. Both so called sides are bought and paid for. We live in an utter scam society. Politics is ruled by money. Money never measures any thing real, so any decision where money is concerned will be wrongly made, the point with money being always to gain more, and never less.
We need a complete change to a different kind of society. Nothing short of that will work. We need to get rid of our political system.
Forming a new type of society is now required for our survival. This old way to think won`t work for an interesting and vital, creative society, one that eliminate the class system, and ensures freedom from belief, and of belief.

At 4:48 PM, August 11, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

II states:
" ..A group of religious Muslims I knew in college once spent an evening debating whether the verse that says that God turned Jews to pigs was literal or metaphorical..."

Wow.......I've been trying to figure that one out myself. Dang, they didn't get it either?

Then she states:

" They couldn't understand why I thought they were a bunch of retarded morons. "

Of course, if that was said OVER THERE,....II would be a footnote in history.

( You really called them that tho? Man.......I'm smitten!! )

At 5:21 PM, August 11, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Oh, I told them they were morons, among other routine exchanges with them over their racism, my immodesty - to think I went to a beach-side college and didn't think of myself as a slut for wearing shorts.

At 9:43 AM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

I particularly like:

3) Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).

What a loving god christians, jews and muslims worship!! He's so vain that he orders anyone who speaks against him to be killed.

What the hell are people thinking: this is the creator of your universe?

At 5:17 PM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Thats right , the creator of the Universe. That is the billing. And according to the way it is set up,you don`t have any say in the matter. It is a one way contract. And by the way the individual doesn`t count, only the group.
So now you know who the enemy is. A combination of these religious creeps and, and corporate creeps.And yes we are doomed, in the present situation. I suggest that every body turns up the juice and exposes in every way they can what is going on.
I have done it through my book and my other writing efforts.
People like your cap. Fogg here are good illustrations of what the problem is. They are not very bright, in the sense that : There are educated fools , but no fools who are educated. : Do I leave any doubt as to what I am saying.?
Any person that sides with an idiotic belief system over another is a damn fool.
Am I clear on that.?
Compliments to R.O.R. I really think you understand a lot.
As far as the owner of this blog, I don`t like you. You have a crummy attitude, and you are not as smart as you think.
'gee guess you just figured out that I don`t care what you think.

At 1:00 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Tsedek said...

When armies were armies and no guerilla-troops mingling under civilians things were a lot better (for every civilian everywhere) but nowadays "warfare" has changed that forever, I suppose.


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