Eternal Dishonesty
That the corporate media in this country are dishonest and disingenuous is cliche at this stage of our political evolution, but sometimes the spin doctors sink to depths I had no idea were reachable by man.MSNBC headlined its news webpage today with an article about the tragedy unfolding in Lebanon. Read it and you'll learn the body count, what the various parties have to say about who is to blame and what will come next if the offending parties do not surrender. Buried in all the well-crafted soundbites is the following paragraph that probably went unnoticed by the average reader:
Arab foreign ministers, meeting in Cairo, adopted a resolution calling for U.N. Security Council intervention. But moderates led by Saudi Arabia, bickering with Syria and other backers of Hezbollah, denounced the Lebanese guerrilla group’s actions in provoking the latest conflict.
Hold the phone people. Saudi Arabia is moderate?
Saudi Arabia? The same Saudi Arabia that has public beheadings every Friday? The same Saudi Arabia that enforces the most extreme version of Islam -- Wahhabism -- on its citizenry? The same Saudi Arabia that forces its women to wear black head-to-toe tents and forbids them from driving, voting or going out in public unaccompanied by a man? The same Saudi Arabia from which the majority of alleged 9/11 hijackers came?
So, if I understand it correctly, it is okay to be a nation of tyrannical, mysogenistic, oppressive, limb-chopping, religious fanatics, but as long as you say that Hizballah is to blame for the current war with Israel, you are a moderate. No wonder American foreign policy is so pschizophrenic. If Saudi Arabia is moderate, then the word extremist truly has no meaning.
posted by Intellectual Insurgent @ 5:10 PM
34 Comments
34 Comments:
We've become accustomed to using relative terms as though they had absolute meaning; as though there were some fixed scale to judge such things by. Certainly Liberal and Conservative are relative and have been rendered meaningless in the same way.
I don't know if the Saudi's have been kidnapping people and I don't think they have been launching rockets or making armed incursions, although I don't consider their hands to be particularly clean when it comes to financing violence. Does this make them moderate? I agree; it's a ridiculous use of the word and ridiculous use of words seems typical of contemporary journalism. Then too, we don't want to offend our oil suppliers by calling them extremists, do we?
I don't know where the chain of blame really starts, but I have to ask who had the last chance to avoid this conflict. Could Hezbullah have stopped it by giving the hostages back? Could they stop it now by giving the Israeli hostages back instead of keeping all of Lebanon hostage? Did any religious war ever make any sense?
US foreign policy makes perfect sense if you follow the money and throw in a bit of racism.
Israel could end the crisis by complying with the UN resolutions that they're in violation of.
Haven't you noticed that Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and all its people - not to enforcing UN resolutions? THis has nothing to do with UN resolutions - Hesbollah isn't claiming that, Hamas isn't claiming that. It's about the existence of Israel.
How do you give back land to someone who pledges to use it to shoot rockets and mortars from it and to launch suicide bombing raids?
There's Mr Hezbollah on the tube at this minute pledging never ever to stop killing Jews.
The West bank was occupied after Jordan tried to destroy Israel. Please don't forget that. They have a better argument for keeping it than the US for keeping New Mexico, Texas, Arizona and California.
There was no shooting until Hezbullah attacked Israel and if you think that smacks of racism you open yourself to the same accusation.
Captain, I can understand the Israeli perspective, but it is not an innocent angel that has not at least brought some of this upon itself. To suggest that Hizballah and whoever else want to destroy Israel just for shits and giggles ignores the tragic history of Jews in Europe and Palestinians of Palestine.
In any event, it will always be my view that the Western imperial powers love keeping this dispute alive. They have the greatest incentive to keep the two groups fighting who, throughout history, have allied to make Christiandom eat shit. Christiandom/Western imperialism cannot triumph if Jews & Muslims are allies. They know it from Islamic Spain where Jews were leaders in the empire, they know it from the Islamic re-capture of Jerusalem with the help of the Jewish community there, and they know it from the Ottoman Empire that, with the help of Eastern Jews, pushed across eastern Europe.
This is divide and conquer at its best and the Westerners laugh all the way to the bank with all the money they make selling weapons to both sides.
I wish I understood it all better.
My gut feeling (admittedly ignorant) is that America has been sheltering Israel long enough. (I don't mean to say that Israel doesn't fight its own battles - they do that rather well - but that we blindly stick with them in the U.N., etc.) Isn't it getting about time to say, "Little brother, you've got to quit hiding behind my back. You're on your own on this one." I realize that the diaspora will never allow that, but it's my gut opinion...
Is that wrong? Am I a bad person?
You're neither wrong nor a bad person. I don't understand why the intimacy between the US and Israel is such a holy grail.
Remember the USS Liberty?
http://www.ussliberty.org/
Jonathan Pollard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
It always staggers me. Hezboallah for no reason other than to kill Jews and try to provoke a reaction leaves Lebanon, enters Israel kills 6 soldiers and kidnaps 2 soldiers. Israel responds in an effort to remove the constant threat of rockets raining down on them and the reaction -"This in not a proportionate response."?
Are you f-ing kidding me?
What should have been the response - kill 6 and kidnap 2? Maybe when 9/11 happened we should have just leveled two buildings in Afghanistan - of course empty buildings so America isn't called a terrorist nation.
These are blood-thirsty terrorists who want to kill Jews around the world, destroy Israel and eliminate and moderate Arabs. They don't want a smaller Israel they want no Israel. People who defend Hezbollah and Hamas are merely useful idiots. They would kill you without hesitation. They get up in the morning thinking of ways to kill of ways to bomb embassies and shoot 747s out of the sky. They pass out candies and sweets and dance in the street when they kill Israelis. They are devoid of humanity. They have no mercy and they should receive none.
The choice is between Israel and murderous Islamic fanatics who would sacrifice everyone in Lebanon just to say they "beat" the Israelis. The Israelis have choosen to live rather than die and that is really what pisses you all off.
It was so much better 60 years ago - so much easier as far as the order of things when Jews were killed in the millions without them fighting back. Now they refuse to let it happen on a daily basis and the world says, "tsk, tsk." The hell with you all.
I'm proud that 60 years ago Jews were merely skin and bones dragging themselves out of death camps and now they fly F-16s. I wonder if all those who disagree with me, I'm guessing Americans, would you think the same way if Osama bin laden were in Canada killing our soldiers and kidnapping 2? Rocketing New York, Chicago and Seattle? Maybe the Israelis should have asked nicely for the people back. Maybe they should have just said we won't retaliate, go ahead kill us and kidnap our soldiers. Parade them in Tehran. They decided no, we think we'll fight back and try to destroy this threat on our border. I guess for all you who continually side with baby killers invading Israel to kill and kidnap and shoot rockets randomly inro major cities there is no convincing you. You stay on the side of Islamic fanatics like Hamas, Hizbollah and al Qaeda. More room for the rest of us on the side that's not simply pure evil trying to destroy the planet.
Well, here's the thing: israel has never made a secret out of doing whatever must be done to get its people back, and that it won't tolerate terrorimson its territory. This is not news.
So when Hezbollah enetered Israel to kill and kidnap israeli soldiers, of course there was going to be a reaction. That was the point of it all. One can argue whether invading and bombing all of Lebanon is appropriate, but there was never a chance in hell there would be no reaction at all.
The real culprits here are Hezbollah and the governments that finance them - Iran and Syria. The victims, as usual, are the civilian populations of israel and Lebanon both. I would assume that Hezbollah gives a rat's ass about either, as long as they can portray themselves as fighting the Zionist enemy or whatever it is that they call the Israelis.
As to 'moderate', yeah, that's just another word for 'people we find useful at a given moment'. I'm surprised the Saudis took the stance they did, but they must be scared shitless that the conflict escalates and de-stabilizes their fragile desert kingdom. I expect there's a lot of similar fear in Foreign Offices in the entire Arab world.
Cranky -
Your emotions always get the best of you on this topic, so a response is quite difficult. No one here is defending Hizballah or Hamas and you are absolutely right that they would kill any of us in a minute. But there is a greater historical context to this. You tell the story as if they arbitrarily chose to hate Israel when they could easily hate Zimbabwe or Cambodia.
With regard to Jews being skin and bones 60 years ago, it is amazing to me that Jewry continues to define itself around the Ashkenazim. Not all Jews were suffering 60 years ago - just the ones in European Christian countries - a fact that is convenient to ignore in the let's hate Islam century. Somehow, the Arab, Spanish and African Jews, the Sephardim, managed to survive centuries under Islamic rule but their stories are completely discounted. Perhaps that is because the Ashkenazim are just as racist towards Sephardim as they are towards Arabs and know that if they ever make peace with the Palestinians, the loss of the external enemy will bring in a civil war in no time.
Nothing like war to distract a nation from its irreconcilable differences.
Fact is fact. Hizbowlallah jsut wanted Israel to know how all this kid nabbing feels. A trade was all work out make shure no harm come to nobody because Israel just kidnabb a lot of Muslims/ peronnes holy . what is that do? Isarel goes back on trade and start to bomb. Hizbowlallah just wants provide for lesbanese, but Israel is so homophobic they just bomb and bomb and bomb.
Somewhat off-topic, but I take great comfort in the obvious inadequacy of the Hillary team. I think tht's the first time I've seen the word 'homophobic' applied to a bombing campaign.
Leo, I didn't watch 9/11 on TV.
I watched it from my dining room window three miles away. So if you're here to lecture about how deeply you understand terrorism, with all due respect, blow me, because you have no clue what you're talking about. The days when all you righties had to do to justify every piece of crap to come down the turnpike was say "9/11. Remember 9/11" are over - a crappy track record will do that.
U.S. policy towards Middle Eastern terror groups has always been to let Israel handle Israeli security concerns, with the simple reasoning that it's not in our (or their) national interest to supplant their security decision-making process. That's been U.S. policy since 1948, and other than some traitor draft-dodgers like Bill Kristol and Newt Gingrich, plus the requisite flying monkeys, nobody sane is arguing for a change in that approach. hamas and Hezbollah are Israeli problems unless and until wecome to the conclusion that they are in danger of being overwhelmed, in which case we consider it in our national interest to get involved. That's the threshhold: the survival, not the convenience, of israel.
But then again, these days, a concept like 'analyzing the national interest' is the same kind of far-left heresy as 'balancing the budget'.
A moderate Saudi Arabia that is rich.
Why would the Saudis take that stance, well I think this is coming down to a Sunni vs. Shia with the west thrown in for good measure.
There is a split in the Muslim world between Sunni and Shia. Shia run countries Iran, Syria and now Iraq (still U.S. run. Saudi Arabia has a large Shia minority and fear civil war. Just my rambling Opinion.
Besides- Fighting over within weeks, Israeli official says
Major-general says army has ‘clear goals’; 11 Lebanese soldiers killed at least 220 people dead in Lebanon and 24 in Israel.
Off Topic
He Hu Laughs Last, Laughs Loudest
Yeah, Leo, right. So where does your in-depth knowledge of the terrorist mind come from - crying yourself to sleep 'cuz you're scared about your local Wal-Mart?
Feh. Loser.
The good thing about Hamas, and why I say they're not our concern, is that the whole region hates their guts. That's because they're a part of the 'Muslim Brotherhood', another group, which is Public Enemy #1 in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria. Ever wonder why Israel can thrash them with complete impunity? Because the rest of the region likes what Israel is doing to them. The Syrians eradicated the entire city of Hama in 1982 over a Muslim Brotherhood revolt - wonder how they feel about Hamas? By 'eradicate', I mean 'level the city and kill its people', BTW. So no, Hamas is a local problem.
Hezbollah, meanwhile, is a Shi'ite proxy of Iran. You do the math on whether Sunni Arabs are going to cheer for them, let alone help them. Ain't gonna happen. Here's a clue: Saudi Arabia introduced a resolution against them. This because they see what wingers here don't, which is that this is a diversionary maneuver by Iran trying to deflect UN security council resolutions.
And now go sell some of our ports to North Korea, Leo. You know you want to.
Naw. The Palestinian Authority was cut off from everything immediately when Hamas came in; if anything, that election weakened Hamas. The game-changer about that election was and is that the foreign policy establishment has become very skeptical about the 'peace process'; all the talk and kumbayah about peace aside, there's no popular support for it. Notice how you don't hear about any peace process any more from anyone.
What has not changed is the calculation of the U.S. national interest - that Bolshevik concept again - which says that we do not usurp the security functions of Israel, because
a) they know what they're doing, and
b) we have no interest whatsoever in getting involved in the West Bank. We have Iraq, that's enough.
Basically, this is the Chechnya/Kashmir calculation: it's someone else's problem, and we're not getting involved.
Leo, is it?
"Hezbullah?? They're not a form of govt, they weren't elected and they represent no govt/national interests, except for their puppet masters in Syria and Iran. So, again, you're slow."
AAACTUALLY...
(from Wikipedia, but you'll find this anywhere): "The civilian wing [of Hezbollah] participates in the Parliament of Lebanon, taking 18% of the seats (23 out of 128) and the bloc it forms with others, the "Resistance and Development Bloc", 27,3% (see Lebanese general election, 2005). It is a minority partner in the current Cabinet."
Not elected? You sure?
NOW who's "slow"...
Israel needs a constant hands on approach in the peace process to keep the bloodshed at a minimum.
Israel should be targeting Hezbollah not the civilian infrastructure power plants, airport, bridges etc.. but like hamas in the Palistinian elections Hezbollah is an elected part of the government of Lebenon (isn't democracy fun) so I guess that gives the Israeli's the pretext for collective punishment.
Just because a president does not get a signed peace accord does not mean failure. The process itself while seemingly never ending helps keep things contained. Bush's hands off approach (let Israel do what it wants) runs the risk of continued escalation.
From 2000
Asked about the latest bombings in Tel Aviv and Gaza, Clinton responded, "I think that this latest violence only reminds people of what the alternative to peace is."
"There are a lot of enemies of peace in the Middle East," he added.
Clinton said that "it would be up to the next administration" to propose any official work that he might be asked to do, such as continuing to mediate the Middle East peace process.
I guess peace is over rated anyway.
send ground forces into Lebanon, raising doubts about international efforts to broker an immediate cease-fire in the fighting that has killed more than 260 people and displaced 500,000.
Noisette is right; this entire mess came about precisely because one arm of Hezbollah is represented in the Lebanese parliament, giving rise to Israel's argument that the Hezbollah incursion was an act of war by a sovereign state.
For your education:
"International Community Cuts Ties to Hamas Government" (March, 2006)
http://www.ifes.org/files/releases/03_31_2006_HammasCabinet.pdf
"Israel said that the Lebanese government is responsible for the actions of Hezbollah, which is a member of the governing coalition."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/world/middleeast/13cnd-mideast.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Leo, you're wrong. Pure and simple.
II - Hello from the NV desert.
Interesting thread. Some good points and perspective.
Only one question: somewhat off topic.
Why do you let Leo post? Reading through his rambling is a waste of time… And Stalin, why do you bother giving him a history lesson? You’re facts and recounting of history; the relationship of the various organizations involved, is obvious lost on someone who’s retort is to call you a ‘loser’.
I think the issues have already been stated… While I fully support Israeli’s right to deal with Hezbollah’s presence in south Lebanon, I’m also saddened by what’s happening to Beirut – a city that was just getting back on its feet.
Unfortunately, the escalation in violence plays right into Hezbollah’s hands: it’ll incite the moderate Lebanese – pushing some into Hezbollah’s camp.
It makes sense that Hamas is an independent nation. If the Republicans picked a fight, would they not be considered the rulers of this country?
As for Hizballah, it is not the government of Lebanon. Even if Independents or Greens win a handful of seats does not mean America should be collectively made to answer for any actions they may take.
Hey. That's enough. I called your argument wrong, I never insulted you personally. You could be St. Theresa for all I know or care. You attacked my reasoning, I responded in kind. What the hell is "Nosey-ette?" Do you think you lend credence to your argument by calling people names? Are you 8 years old?
I actually agree that Israel should not be holding the Government of Lebanon to account for Hezbollah, the militant wing of which they cannot control. My point (apparently to subtle for you), was that Hamas has not earned international legitimacy, and that Hezbollah cannot be characterized as a rogue entity as they currently control the largest block in Lebanese Parliament.
BTW, even if II and I do disagree, as we do at times, I am hardly going to stoop to calling her some sort of asinine name. I'll leave that to you.
TOO subtle. Writing quickly; bad grammar.
Hehe.
RoR, to be fair, I'm the one who called Leo a loser; we do this from time to time. There's a history here, where insults fly back and forth. I find him amusing.
Noisette, as above, if you argue with Leo's deep wisdom - acquired where I don't know, SE Asia kiddie brothels perhaps - you'll face some feces-throwing. It's standard. In this case, you're a Bush-hater 'cuz, well, you just are. It's hot, so creativity is a casualty. "Nosey-ette" isn't the best he's come up with, but no doubt some improvement is shortly to be expected.
:=], StS
Yikes guys, it does not need to be so heated. Not sure where the conversation degenerated, but can we play nice in the sandbox?
Leo doesn't offend me and can post here because he and I have already gone to blows on various other blogs. I assume he and Sharky have done so as well, so we all have a rapport established.
And, for once in a rare blue moon, I actually get the point Leo is making here and agree with the distinction between Hizballah and Hamas(who knew that would ever happen?)
Why should Hamas' legitimacy be tied to the blessings of the international community? The Palestinian people voted for them. Isn't that legitimacy enough? Why should the UN have the right to essentially annul a democratic election?
Well, fair enough. I didn't mean to spoil the fun... really.
II (and yes, Leo, you too) we'll have to agree to disagree. Although I think we might agree on the main points. I am slammed right now but will try to write more later.
II-The Palestinian people voted for them. Isn't that legitimacy enough?
It should be but the US and Israel did not like the results. It's that simple. We never gave them a chance and under cut them from the get go.
Anon -
That is very true! So true.
BTW, I believe it's "schizophrenic". Is there a P up front there?
:-), StS
Very best site. Keep working. Will return in the near future.
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