Sunday, August 13, 2006

Wrong Impressions

The past two weeks have been incredibly unamusing. Putting aside the slaughter in Lebanon, the 14-hour-days at work and missing my flight to Rome on Friday because GW and his minions are playing Fear Factor with carry-on baggage, a cousin of mine is visiting from Egypt and is making me into an Egyptian parent.

I thought she was different from the rest but, boy oh boy, was I wrong.

It is a peculiar misconception held by many foreigners, and definitely including Arabs and Muslims, that Americans have no morals. None. Their image of America and Americans is a crude version of "Girls Gone Wild", where parents let kids do whatever they want, sex with anyone you want is okay, there are no rules and anything goes. Perhaps it is one too many episodes of the "Bold and The Beautiful" or "Baywatch", both of which are regular staples of the Arabic television diet, but it is quite apparent that my cousin thought she would come to America and be a girl gone wild.

So when my sister and I told her she was out of her mind for thinking we would let her go out alone with some shady Arabic guy she met on the plane ride over here, she started behaving like a child, lying, trying to play us off against each other, all so she could go have "coffee" with this guy. Did I mention that this sleezy guy was planning to pick her up from my father's house for "coffee" at 10:00 p.m. during the week? We thought this was a matter of Arab culture, a culture in which no man with an ounce of decency would ever suggest to a woman's family that he pick her up at 10:00 p.m. (and which is the tell-tale sign that the mystery man is utter filth). Most women are not allowed to stay out that late and, certainly, not alone with a guy the family does not know. The more we thought about it, however, it is not something unique to Arab culture because the response is no different in American culture. It is a matter of basic safety.

When I asked her what made her think such behavior was okay, one of the many lying responses she tried to pass was that she does the same things in Egypt. As I tried to contain my laughter, with flashbacks of all my conflicts with family members in Egypt who would not let me come and go as I please during my visits, I asked her to name one male member of the family who would not beat her ass for asking if some strange guy no one knows could pick her up at 10 p.m. Her silence spoke volumes.

It is not often that I wave the American flag for anything, but I let her have it. I told her that, contrary to popular belief, Americans are far more moral than those hypocrite Muslims who fuck prostitutes and molest boys under the cover of darkness. The only difference between America and Egypt is that people here speak openly about what is going on, rather than bury it in mounds of lies and hypocrisy. When you do come across a virgin in America, you know she is a virgin by choice and not because having sex, or even talking to the wrong boy, is a life or death decision. The real test of morality is putting someone in a society where she can have sex and seeing if she still has all those uppity morals behind which she takes cover.

My cousin does not.


At 8:07 PM, August 13, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

By the way , when I was in Egypt, I saw lots of young women out at night. It was fairly common. There is just about zero crime there.

At 6:23 AM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

You are right, there are young women out at night all the time. But they are usually out with people the family knows and, the society as a whole, looks out for them. No one there would ever think it was okay to go out at 10:00 at night while staying with a 66-year-old uncle with someone no one knows.

And, if you're the type to let your 24-year-old cousin leave the house at 10pm with some sleezy guy you don't know in a country to which she has never been and is completely unfamiliar, then you obviously lack common sense.

At 6:44 AM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger Chris said...

Actually, II, we're struggling with a similar situation -- except that the young woman is a 40-something married lady from New York who seems to think that "what happens in Iowa stays in Iowa."

People act differently when they're out-of-town, or when they think no one they know is looking.

At 7:19 AM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Intellectual insurgent ha.? You seem like a typical moral majority American. Why is it that you want to make a 24 year old women bend to your crack pot moral hoops.? You cannot make any one do what you want them to do morally. Every one is free to do as they please. Even you.
The line of crap sounds straight out of Falwell, VanImpe, or John Hagee.
Your house sounds like a bummer place to visit.
It must be no fun to be lectured by a hypocrite, about morality.
It is interesting how people try and enforce their comical version of morality on people.
Reality check.---Nature provides the limits as to what is natural. If it wasn`t natural you could not do it. Your blathering about prostitutes , and boys, and morals tells more about you than your poor relative. Your fears.
Your house sounds like a bummer place. Really deadly.
It`s laughable that an adult would try and control a 24 year old woman.

At 8:39 AM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

When one takes such ungrammatical umbrage as does our friend Skip, I'm tempted to get out the red pencil and grade it, but it's not worth it.

I think you did the right thing in protecting an innocent abroad who may be old enough, but probably not experienced enough to deal with the American night.

The way people in other countries view America is really amusing. I have run into some who think Chicago is still run by Al Capone, tommy guns and all, and that Black people still are forced to ride in the back of busses.

At 8:53 AM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger steakbellie said...

You're nuts

It would be crazy to allow a family members get thrown to the wolves like that. How is that 'Moral Majority'?

At 10:51 AM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

What's wrong with prostitutes? :-)

I like the Egyptian culture where a strange man can't just pick up a girl. If I ever have a daughter, she's going to be hard-pressed to go out with some cat I don't know or have never heard of. Fuck that.

Who among us can say that they don't act differently when uninhibited by their typical circle? When I go to Vegas or NYC, I drink til my mind is numb and I smoke cigarettes. I'd NEVER do that at home.

My view of America is basically that many of us are sex-crazed, Lindsay Lohan lovin' immoral idiots and the rest are hippocrite(sp) religious nuts.

At 11:45 AM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Make sure no one sends their daughters to stay at Skip's house. He'll let them whore away with no regard for the trust you placed in him to keep your daughter safe.

I could care less if my cousin wants to bang 100 guys, but not on my watch when I have to answer for it and not in a way that makes her a perfect candidate for an episode of Forensic Files.

Spare me your lecture Skip. It's called common sense, something you apparently lack.

At 1:15 PM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Ya right, I`ll let them whore away. Just a little lesson. Women can do as they please without people like you calling them whores. It is obvious that you have no respect for the people around you. At all.
I won`t be on this site much longer.
You people seem be caught up with Falwell and company. I don`t think you should pass yourself off as an intellectual of any stripe.
As far as not fitting in I could fit you into any number of pigeon holes, and you seem to fit fine.
As far as insurgent, maybe one for the religious right.// What a control freak.
Like a lot of these sites this one seems to be driven by little egoistic pet peeves that the owner here thinks are important. -- Like his view of others people sexual concepts. /// Oh so now you don`t care if she bangs a 100 guys.? Not on your watch.?
I can understand if you don`t want to watch.
You seem like a sexually immature person in the extreme.
I suppose that you have a deal with your significant other that if they kiss another that your relationship is over. As to Chris and Fogg , thank you for your inane commentary. Very comical.
Mr. B over B seems to have a restrained wit, and a brain.
So, do I lack this common sense that you mention.? Ya, definitely.
I think that must mean lowest common denominator of thinking, and in America, that is not a group I want to belong to.
In your nasty rant about your relatives desire to leave the house you also mentioned that you work extreme hours.
I have news for you. Work is for horses. How dumb is it to work like a horse. And then complain.

At 5:45 PM, August 14, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

All I want to know is, does she know how to cook steak and is she single!!

0 = /

At 10:37 AM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger Noisette said...

"I have news for you. Work is for horses. How dumb is it to work like a horse. And then complain."

Dude, that doesn't even make any sense. So- you DON'T work? Are you some sort of rambling trust fund baby?

You are entitled to your view of II's decisions vis-a-vis her cousin, but your tone is insulting and brings the whole discourse down. Why do that?

At 12:00 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Dude Skip, you need meds.

Your response speaks more about your mental instability than it does about my alleged need to "control" my cousin's behavior. Get some therapy.

At 12:15 PM, August 15, 2006 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is hilarious.

At 1:22 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

II - I was right along with you until I read your cousin is 24 years old. While it may be culturally "wrong" for her to go on a late night date, I don't think you have any real right to stop her.

I suppose you can say she is staying under your roof -- so that gives you the right to control her comings and goings: so be it. That may be true. But realize you are imposing your cultural/moral view on another ADULT.... and I find that somewhat objectionable.

I realize you are couching the argument in concern for her saftey, but at what age does your cousin get to utilize her version of "common sense"? If she wanted to go out with a guy (at night) when she turns 40 is that still forbidden?

At 1:45 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Its really pathetic what pass`s for discourse. So sorry to have to throw cold water in some of your face`s but I know a bunch of brain washed responses to sexual issues when I hear them. I don`t do my writing as an act of back scratching. I actually like to think.
Noisette , it is obvious that you relate to the world through the caste or class system. Why would you care if
I made a fortune in the stock market in the 90`s , or inherited it from my grandma, or am poor as a church mouse.? // All I said was that work was for horse`s. Most people have enough sense not to waste their time working , especially excessively.
Also isn`t it interesting that as a creative person , it is suggested that I need meds.?
Do you have several people around you medicated now because you fear their creativity.? Perhaps you are medicated yourself, and think it would benefit others.?
I suggest your relative visiting watch out, you may want her committed and drugged because she has some honest human emotions. /// Do you own stock in the drug companies.? You are sounding more Nazi like all the time. Do you suggest any particular type of therapy.? Punching pillows maybe.? Interesting how fascistic people just hate a free spirit. Whoops ~ ! did I say that.~! Wow. It doesn`t take a lot of analysis to figure this out.
I really hate people like you. Self important and uneducated.
In this world you are part of the problem, or part of the solution.
Americans are the most arrogant people on earth. They think they are smart because they can wave around a little tin, knife they think is an idea, like sexual immorality. / The reality is this land was blessed with a lot of resources. It is a mistake to think you are wealthy on the surface because you are smart. It is because you are lucky.
Why do people think they can control another's sexuality.?
Don`t worry I will leave you to your slumber here soon.

At 1:54 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

skip - the condescending tone and hyperbole don't add to the debate: they just piss everyone off... even those who tend to agree with some of what you say.

Contrary to your implications, you don't have all the answers.

At 2:48 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Fortunatly I am not looking for friends. As far as having all the answers, I don`t think I made that claim.
If this guy, the insurgent wants to air out his dirty belief system ideas then he should suffer the consequences.
Besides you have only heard me when I am being friendy and relativly nice.
I am just an advocate of freedom.

At 3:29 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger Noisette said...

"Most people have enough sense not to waste their time working , especially excessively."

Wow- who are these people? Can I join their "caste?" I wasn't aware that most people have found ways around an honest day's work. And here I am toiling away- gosh, I must be an idiot. Oh no, wait- I'm a very well educated lawyer. Doing a horse's job (asylum law). When do I get to stop working?

I love that you accuse us of pigeon-holing when you have done nothing but that to II and to the rest of us. I think there was a point where you referred to II as "he"- which is amusing, since you are foisting male-female sexual stereotypes on II without realizing that she is a woman. Oops.

At 4:19 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

ooooooooo DRAMA.....okay, NOW I"m doing a ' drive-by ' cause I already ASKED the main point of this topic:

IS she single, and CAN she cook steak!?

Anything else is a waste of good cyber space for more rhetoric.

I will however, begin with a quote from herr skip, in which he states:

"Americans are the most arrogant people on earth."

Ummmm, please define that statement? Is a person arrogant, or confident? IS confidence in oneself a sign of arrogance??
Considering that's kind of a bold statement, I suppose that the making it, proves YOUR point, that SOME Americans are just that, arrogant ( like yourself )

I'm sure II is well aware, of what she CAN and CAN"T do to a family member adult in HER house....however, herr SKIP, it's still HER HOUSE. So, the RULES, apply, regardless of how OLD that person is. You don't like it??
Get a room some place.

24, 34, 44...whatever, same applies. You don't like the HOUSE RULES?? Stay at another HOUSE. Seems to me, the COUSIN likes the visitation, she's just not liking the RULES. Too fricken bad.

As far as your, ummmm, commentary to the board here......besides being a tad on the irked/irrated side?? And? You're probably NOT looking for ' friends ' for you probably don't HAVE any REAL ones in your life.....of course, that's just suposition. That you claim to want to LEAVE the board?? Well buddy, no one's holding you back, take a F**** hike and don't let the door hit your fatass on the way what, leave if you don't like it.

I personally like the ability to visit when I choose too, unless of course, II decides to ban me, which is a thread unto itself.
Again, you stated " Americans are arrogant ".....well, to this I can only add:

And SOME are not only arrogant, they're assholes to boot.

( looking at Skip, as my POINT being MADE )

Ya'lls have a nice day!!
0 = ]

At 5:03 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Noisette, you are easily amused. Gender has no play in anything I have said, despite your seizing on that.
So, you are a lawyer doing an honest days work. That's funny. I thought all lawyers were crooks, more or less.
You talk about an honest days work like you still live in the 17th century and you pitch manure for a living.
Believe it or not there really is not a connection with what you do and honesty at all.
Most of our legal code comes from the rantings and ravings of a certain Hammurabi from about 1800 BC, and most all of it revolves around the control and manipulation of private property and people. -- Ever read any of that code of his. I think you might be surprised how alike it is to the modern variety.
It was back around that time when they turned the fine art of manipulation from religion, and legal codes into a fine art of how to manipulate and control the class system. That is done with money and private property. Something the legal profession can not do without. So. You may blindly follow this society , and think you are doing good. But you know what, you are just another sucker. Your whole occupation is based on the caste/class system and private property. All fake illusory stuff. Or in case you didn`t know money is an abstract concept. A debt token. It measure debt, which doesn`t exist in the world of reality. Do you follow me.? Your so called profession is as worthless as the banking , insurance,or any number of other profesions that accomplish absolutly nothing.
I do imagine that you waste a lot of resources, at your so called job.
Lots of innocent trees , are sacrificed for your attempt to make money. That is to bad, since they go to a bad end, with legal scribbling on them.
Lawyers are blood suckers .
In a good society there would be no contracts. Understand.? No contracts, and that includes marriage. In that contract you are penalized property and so called money. Hows that for barbaric.-
You women can stick together all you want if it makes you feel good. It is you women who bake the cookies and drag the poor children off to church, and brag about your real estate holdings and your net worth , and how much you can control your husbands and visiting relatives etc. What do the women get out of it.? They can say, yes, I am married, oh and I have children. And if my husband doesn`t love me the way I want I will ruin his life.
In a good society people can live where they want. Not in some crooked contract drawn up by a church and a lawyer, before some phoney god in order to brain wash citizens into playing the role of good corporate androids, ready to consume.
Does your life seem strangely empty with the occupation you do.? Manipulating money and people.
Are you a good corporate citizen.?

At 5:11 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger Noisette said...

"You women can stick together all you want if it makes you feel good. It is you women who bake the cookies and drag the poor children off to church... (etc etc incoherent ramblings)"

I may be a blood sucker, my dear skip, but you are nuts. N-V-T-S nuts, to quote a favorite movie.

Good luck living in the world and gleaning any happiness or satisfaction from it. Wow.

And don't, you know, propagate any stereotypes about lawyers, or anything.

At 6:35 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Oh Skipper dude! I am amazed that you sell yourself as a writer and write as poorly as you do!

But then you make condescending comments about people's "pet peeves" and inundate us with yours. Did you ever ask yourself who gives a damn what you think?

Basically it's none of your damn business what goes on in someone else's family nor do you have the ability to know the circumstances or the people involved.

No, it's just your packaged, one size fits all and steadfastly ungrammatical pet peeves about "crackpot moral hoops" as you so clumsily put it.

So is your art as crappy as your writing? Did somebody push your hot button, or are you just an asshole?

At 8:05 PM, August 15, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Dear capt.frog, Sorry I don`t please you, As an expert at pseudo-intellectual one upmanship, I am sure you are without equal. I like to stick with reality.
I refer you to an earlier statement I made in regard to yourself." There are many educated fools, but no fools that are educated." -

At 7:17 AM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Is that a chip on your shoulder or is that your head? You started a vicious exchange all by yourself; slinging unprovoked and unrestrained insults for the very purpose of starting an argument, so don't expect any kind of respect. You won't get it any more than you'll be able to prove your alleged intellect by telling me how smart you are in broken English.

You're a pathetic loser Skippy. Pretend your way out of it if you like, but again - who cares about your cheap blustery opinions about how other people conduct their family matters?

At 8:23 AM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Every one has an opinion and you are entitled to yours.
Just because I am rich, famous, and surrounded by groupies, you may well think I am a loser.
Just because I lead an interesting lifestyle, have traveled around the world six times, and have pursued and accomplished most of my dreams, that probably does not fit your definition of success, right,?
Sounds like you need a hug. I hope you can find some one to do that.
At least my goat hasn`t been gotten.
People reveal themselves by their actions. Written and otherwise.
The written word is almost magical in that way.

At 8:39 AM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Possum said...

So II, I'm missing the answer to Reign's question:

If she is 24 why are you imposing your will?

While I won't go into detailed analysis of what you might be thinking, let me say this: you do so because you love her as much as if she was your own daughter.

You create difficult rules for her protection.

You exert influence to prevent her from hurting herself.

In the end she will ultimately make her own decision to obey or deny. Even if she doesn't obey you don't stop loving her.

If all of these factors are true then you have a very good foundation of the relationship of Jesus to Christians.

At 9:47 AM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

Skip says:

Just because I lead an interesting lifestyle, have traveled around the world six times

Wow....6 times?? That's all??

Keep trying, one day you'll catch up.

At 12:08 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Give it up Skip, I know who you are and you don't know who I am. You won't win a financial pissing contest and I think your groupies are cryptofascist crackpots.

Like most internet psychos you come in booming and yelling and then pretend to calm and detached superiority with an icing of bragadoccio when you flame out. I've been around much longer than you have and I've seen ten thousand like you.

If your only defense for your abominable behavior is to gloat about your pet goat, than loser you are and loser you will remain in saecula saeculorum, immer und ewig ,l'olom voed or whatever language you prefer when flitting about the globe selling your utopian nonsense.

At 12:57 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Tsedek said...

That's a recognizable story :)

May I ask if the wanna-be-amant did call on her that evening, or had someone sent a msg to him to bugger-off?


At 1:12 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

dear crapton frog. Your right I don`t know who you are. I couldn`t care less either. You are not a compelling character.
Your type of discourse does not interest me. Way to egoistic .
I have simply brought up an issue here in my own way.
As far as Utopia`s that's not my thing. You betray your ignorance.
You my odd friend are what is referred to as a wanna be intellectual alpha dog.
I hate people like you. You are so ignorant. Comical you think you are smart.

At 2:08 PM, August 16, 2006 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok, this went from amusing to ridiculous. The anger and accusations, assumptions and conclusions based on your own assumptions about someone else's argument are insane.

I'm said it up top. House rules. You're the guest, I'm the host. If I don't want strange people coming to my house uninvited then thats my call.

At 2:18 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

I was hoping that after you told me you were rich and famous and beautiful and well travelled and accomplished and very very satisfied with your wonderful rock star life you'd go on about your car being faster or your yacht longer or your penis being bigger - or something else as pathetic - to hide the fact that you've made a boor of yourself by attacking Intellectual Insurgent for trying to keep her cousin safe. It remains none of your damn business, of course and your attack on me is only a dumb way to distract from your dumb statements.

Of course after that hyperbolic and egotistical bragfest, you did call me "to[sic]egoistic" which is pretty funny even ignoring the fractured syntax and childish spelling.

So what happened to the aloof Skip the condescending cool-guy Skip who was happy he got my goat? Time for more lithium maybe? or maybe you're half in the bag at this hour. Maybe the Shadow knows, but I doubt he cares.

Maybe it's another Skip Sievert who is pushing a New World Order of Technocrats to replace democracy?

I frankly don't know, what a "wanna be intellectual alpha dog" is or how it might pertain here, but remember, you started the barking and the insults and you're the one who has been telling us how smart you are. I haven't said anything about myself at all. How that's pretentious, I can't imagine.

Anyway, I suggest that we are abusing someone else's forum and it's time for you to go away and kick your dog or pull the wings off flies or dream about technofascism or whatever you do after dark, and leave the nice lady whose blog this is alone. She deserves better.

At 3:17 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

"...and leave the nice lady whose blog this is alone. "

Ummmm, okay. Where did THIS come from?? Nice lady?!?!?!
0 = /

oookay, tho she DOES have her moments.

nice I have to chuckle at this

At 3:17 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

"...and leave the nice lady whose blog this is alone. "

Ummmm, okay. Where did THIS come from?? Nice lady?!?!?!
0 = /

oookay, tho she DOES have her moments.

nice I have to chuckle at this

At 6:03 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

What a mess... Nice work Capt, but I suggest you don't waste any more time.

Possum, II, Inar: imposing rules for a family member to stay (as Inar puts it) "in HER HOUSE" is fine. But where do you draw the line? We're talking about an adult here. When does a family member/adult get to make their own decisions about who to date and when?

Reminds me of friends who's parents wouldn't let kids express themselves... they tried to turn them into perfect little citizens with a bunch of constraining rules. These are the ones that went the wildest during my freshman year in the dorms...

At 9:49 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

I step away from the blog for a day and this is what happens.

Listen, I return this discussion to where it started. She was trying to pull this shit at my dad's house. A 66-year-old guy who just lost his wife doesn't need the hassle of making sure that a naive girl in a foreign country doesn't get herself in trouble. This isn't about controlling her. This is about what is respectful and I know that when I stay at someone's home when I am visiting, I don't treat the place like a hotel.

Sorry, but if you are a decent human being with an ounce of manners, you wouldn't stay the night at the house of an elderly relative and go out on late night dates with strangers. That's not cool. I really cannot understand why that is so difficult to comprehend. If that makes me Jerry Falwell, so be it.

At 10:20 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Mr. Wilson said...

captian fogg-

you mean i don't have to ride in the back of the bus anymore?

hey ii - when i was driving home i gave some thought to what is going on with your was difficult listening to you (of all people) speak of enforcing such bullshit patriarchal control over a woman, but i couldn't argue that you were not doing the right thing. as you said, you could care less about her doing whatever she wants, but she needs to do that shit independently of you and not jeopardize your relationship with your family, and make her hosts uncomfortable. point blank...if she wants to be treated like a grown up in america, let her do what us greedy american capitalists her own independence from the cultural moors of her family. she could stay at the snooty fox down on western and slauson for $39 a night.

a grown woman doesn need to be allowed to do anything within the context of our culture because she would is prepared to take full responsibility for herself, not dumping herself on family, then friends.

can you catch me up on the status? she still staying in the cramped quarters up the street from me?

At 10:38 PM, August 16, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Mr. Wilson,

Your point about independence is well-taken.

As far as I know, she's still at her friend's house.

At 5:48 PM, August 17, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Mr. Wilson,

By all accounts no, you don't, but I'm sure there are still those who aren't pleased by that. ;-)

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