Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Quotes Of The Day

From Gore Vidal's Imperial America -

"We cannot maintain an empire in the Orient
and maintain a republic in America."
Mark Twain


"We have a single system...and in that system the only question
is the price at which the proletariat is to be bought and sold,
the bread and circuses."
Henry Adams
Happily, for the busy lunatics who rule over us,
we are permanently the United States of Amnesia.
We learn nothing because we remember nothing."
Gore Vidal

22 Comments:

At 7:48 PM, August 29, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

I really love Gore Vidal. He is the only one of the presented, alternative, smart people who actually is smart.
I also really love Samuel Clemens. He wrote a not so well known book called The Mysterious Stranger, one of my favorites.
While there are no political solutions to the problems that face us, there are ideas that could transform our society into one we could be proud of.
The single system that Gore is referring to is the Price System. It is the root cause of our failure to have and develop a good society.
Gore is trying to point out a truth.
The motives behind the things we do now are always bad motives. We are doing most things for the wrong reasons. That's why things don`t seem to turn out right. Its because we are all connected, so its a tragedy for all.
The Technocracy movement has an alternative plan. So far no one has ever been able to disprove our ideas that we have been floating since the 1930`s .

 
At 7:54 PM, August 29, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

What is the technocracy movement?

 
At 8:53 AM, August 30, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

In answer to II's question??

Ummmmm, me thinks ol skip has had one too many sessions playing D & D, and it's warped his sense of direction.

Wait......before I truely commit to that statement?? Let me make my saving throw....die 20...

Crap. I failed.

 
At 9:01 AM, August 30, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

It started out as a kind of think tank out of Columbia University in the 1920`s. It was a group of some of the most brilliant scientists of the time period. The basic premise is that we can now switch to an energy accounting system so as to stop using money. This system that we now use is the Price System. It uses money to determine whatever is done. Money is an abstract concept. Not real. It measures debt, another abstract concept. Also not real. When choices are made using this method the whole point is always to acquire more money. As population grows and resources lessen or are permanently destroyed, the bad decisions start to pile up. So, we are chasing a mirage. Our system is a throw back to before the 17th century when we had a scarcity based economy. A price system use`s that scarcity based concept as it basis. Also all the old bugaboos of class and caste are tangled up in it.
We have proposed since back then to combine with Canada, Mexico and Central America because of the resource base that would provide. All citizens would get an energy debit card as a right of citizenship. Many jobs would be eliminated that deal with money as they would no longer be needed. Every ones standard of living would improve considerably. After a twenty year period of lots of free time and an ability to live where you care to you would be free to do as you pleased within the context of the Technate. There would be no contracts in a Technate, this being a throw back to price system values, and not needed as there is not money. Education, and environmental clean up would no longer be thought of in terms of money, which doesn`t actually solve these problems anyway.

The movement is gaining new strength now, and we are looking for people to help us. Most importantly to get the ideas out. Our official website is undergoing some construction work but is partially open. www.technocracyinc.org also there is N.E.T. or network or European Technocracts, which is a spin off of the movement here. If you google technocracy and related things you will find a growing body of things. It has been repressed for decades.
Now with the internet the powers that be have a harder time repressing it.
It is totally secular. Freedom based. A way out of the current nightmare.
Freedom of and from belief. Steady state instead of growth, growth is a must in a price system and it will obviously kill all of us if we don`t change. O.K. I hope that gives you a small idea, there is a lot more to it. Our precedent document is the 1934 Technocracy Study Course, still our most important document, it lays out our entire program. Wikipedia has it , my www.technocracynow.org website has it, and a site by Haraldur, and N.E.T. has it. We are headquarterd in the state of Washingtons. Our headquarters is called Chq, or continental headquarters. Please explore what we have to offer, and yes we need help.

 
At 11:38 AM, August 30, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Utopian anarchy.


"So far no one has ever been able to disprove our ideas that we have been floating since the 1930`s ."

Floating is a good word.

Nobody can disprove a general negative, but I would wager that if this nebulous "price free" society were implemented, it would require a police state to enforce, nor would the public have much say as to who would be the leaders.

Of course, after the State withers away. . . .

 
At 12:30 PM, August 30, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

II, good quotes to ponder. I was worried for a moment about you and Stalin, as both of you were absent for awhile. It's good to see you alive and well, and even Inaranjoiv
has come by for a visit.

I surfed over to the Western Alliance blog to see if Aaron has resurfaced, but alas no. Jen is in rare form, at her "Foaming at the Mouth" best. It's time for "the Duke", old John Wayne himself to come back from the dead, and give her a good spanking.

If any of you have the time to see an interesting public debate go to www.auburnjournal.com, and you will be able to see a series of Letters to the Editor regarding the Bill of Right, the ACLU, and W's ploys to skirt around the Laws of this Nation.

Here's a quote for you, "Leadership and Learning are indispensable to each other". (JFK).

Just goes to show why we have so many damn problems in this country, and also relates to one of II's quotes.

Some our current

 
At 1:07 PM, August 30, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

In answer to Captain Dog,er Frog,er fogg. It is interesting how someone who knows nothing about something can be an expert with out knowing anything. You would be a case in point. I mentioned this before when I referred to you as a wanna be , intellectual alpha dog. That dog attitude is as follows, If you can`t eat it, or fuck it , piss on it.
Does that leave any doubt as to the way I think your mind works.?

To Inaranjoiv, this requires a little more thought than is she single and can she cook steak.

I would add to fogg that there is no connection to Utopia, and certainly none to Anarchy.
There are many educated fools , but no fools that are educated.

Why is it that there is such a nasty tone for people that have ideas.? I can only assume that some of you are so deeply brainwashed that you have lost the ability to think. You only think in terms of other formulae.

Ms. Insurgent I do appreciate you interest, and hope you find these ideas of interest.

 
At 8:25 AM, August 31, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Can we keep it civil guys?

As my strategic non sequitur, what do you think of the quotes Leo?

Skip, how does your movement/philosophy avoid the quantification of labor? It seems that it is different from the price system only in the currency used, but not in the idea of valuing things for exchange. What do you mean by "energy"? BTW - this stuff sounds very Ayn Randian.

 
At 10:30 AM, August 31, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Actually it is not Ayn Randian in the least. Many years ago I read through her entire catalog.Why.? I was curious and wanted to understand her philosophy. Her essays on the value and/or beauty of money are very antithetical to the Technocracy movement. She saw money as a freeing mechanism. If you think about it a little bit , it can be shown to be a very primitive and destructive way to run a society. All and any choices being made to get more of an abstract concept that measures nothing real. Perhaps it measure debt, another abstract. You can make any one do almost anything for it.
Although it is debatable that she drew part of her Howard Roark character from bits of Howard Scott, the actual person that started our movement in the late 20`s last century, and someone who was an American radical, original to the nth degree. Perhaps one of the most creative people of the 20th century.
I see by the way ,from the eclectic batch of things you are interested in that you are a very sincere seeker .
An energy debit card would be a right of citizenship. Energy is measured in ergs, kilowatts, horsepower etc. - The amount of energy that is required to take a raw material from the ground to the consumer. As a consumer you would be debited this amount from your energy debit card when you go, to not buy something, but to get something. In other words you would not buy things any more, just go get what you needed.
Hoarding would be pointless, as you only have so much space to put things, and no one would not have the basics and more to have a great life.
As a citizen you would have equal consuming power ,as any other citizen.
For the first time in history women and men would be completely free of the thing that is destroying our society now. That is the Price System.
Our current system did indeed get us where we are. It cannot get us to the future though.
In a technate education would blend seamlessly with work. A person would be obligated to put in their 20 years, but with a completely different focus than from the present. There would be no rents , no utilities , or mortgages. No contracts. All those things would be free. With money out of the picture it no longer is used to measure what is a good education, or what it takes to clean up environmental concern.
Science would administer our program. It would provide the optimum chance for personal growth.
Hard to believe because you have never heard of it , but, Technocracy was the biggest, fasted growing social movement of the early 1930`s. It has been repressed for many decades. Why.? It actually is alternative, not the fake alternative that is presented by the powers that be. We get rid of our Political system. Permanently.
How is it different.? In every conceivable way. It would be a much more fun, and challenging type of culture to be in. We could actually be proud of our culture.
There is still a window of opportunity to do this. If we hang on to the horrible bubble of our present society we will destroy our selves in a most desultory way.
Try going to www.technocracyvan.ca It is a site run by an old time Technocrat . It should provide more info. As mentioned our official site is being remodeled , but it has some info on it even so , and should be up and running soon. That site is www.technocracyinc.org -- My book is not every ones cup of tea but it is free at my site www.technocracynow.org and I am very proud of it.
I hope I have answered a little of your question. There is a lot of info. out there , and more all the time.

 
At 10:44 AM, August 31, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

The reason to use the energy debit system is to keep track of resources. That way in relation to population it is known what is desired by the citizens , what the consumer wants, and what is practical and environmentally smart to do. Energy debits could not be traded, or given to any one. The standard of living all in all would be very high . Hence we become a society that would lose our current class or caste system, which is integral to a price system.
The early technocrats were the first ecologists. Much is written on the subject in our original study course from 1934. Scientists and Engineers take a dim view on wasting resources.
Energy debits would be issued individualy every year or two. This is why we call it energy accounting.

 
At 12:21 PM, August 31, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

so what happens when someone uses all their energy credits to watch porn on the internet... and starts to go hungry?

;)

 
At 1:43 PM, August 31, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

They get elected to public office, or appointed the head of FEMA :)

 
At 2:26 PM, August 31, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

It would be virtually impossible to use all your energy debits. The system is set up more as an inventory system as anything. While its true that someone , who say for instance, was enthralled with lamps, could go out and get a hundred, they would still be limited to their living space, and also would most likely be considered rather eccentric for that activity.
If there was porn on the Internet, and I assume there would be because of the demand for such interesting things, you would not be debited any more for that than any thing else. As I mentioned utilities would not cost any thing. There again I know it is hard to not relate to things , as we relate to money , but this is different.
I suppose porn is expensive in a price system. You have to toss that whole way of thinking though to understand technocracy.
Just an aside, no man or women would be compelled to do things that they would not like to do because of the economic club of money poised over there heads.
More than anything energy accounting is a way to keep track of resources in relation to population, also what is desired by the citizens, something we don`t do now , except by its relationship to money, so choices in that regard are made wrong always. Always money takes precedence. If it doesn`t make money, it isn`t done. Money is not real though. It is an abstract concept. That doesn`t really measure any thing except arguably debt, another abstract concept.
Can you imagine what an incredibly interesting technological society we could be living in if money and technology were no longer connected.? If the motivation in medicine, transportation , etc. was not money.?
No one would go hungry in a Technate. Those who are disabled , or unable to work would have the full rights of energy accounting as any one else. It is not a carrot and stick approach as is now.
Most people especially when young want to contribute to society in a positive way. 20 years of 3 or 4 days a week 4 to 6 hours is not a lot of hours, and lots of vacation working is not asking a lot. Maximum freedom for the individual is built into our system. I will also make the point that since the machine age started there is no longer a connection between labor and goods produced. The human machine only can put out about a third of a horse power and hour. A machine can do the work of hundreds of humans in a few seconds. Our price system use`s this pre 17th century model, still as the gauge of how to interpret worth as a human. We should have transferred into a play culture and not a work culture with the rise of the machine age. The pressure to maintain the cast or caste system has every one almost blinded though and brain washed.
As Gore Vidal says, we are the United States Of Amnesia. We learn nothing because we remember nothing.
That quote said for; the busy lunatics that rule over us. These people are also on automatic pilot.
Is is a plot.? Sort of but not really. Mostly just mechanicalness, sleep walking, unconsciousness. Humans are easily tricked, fooled, gullible. That was discovered a long time ago, and since then it has been the -Every thing for me and nothing for you mentality. It doesn`t have to be that way though. As mentioned the price system did get us here, but,,now if we don`t change we will destroy ourselves.
Our society now has made life nearly impossible for young people. It has turned into a kind of economic torture machine. We do not value our youth any more. What kind of world, and what kind of example are we giving the young people.? They know that no one cares really, and they can look around and see that things are not good and getting worse. They know they will be replaced in a heartbeat, and they are not valued, except as a machine to make money.

 
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