Saturday, September 16, 2006

About Culture

Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds.
The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who
refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses
instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.

Albert Einstein


Continuing where we left off in the previous post, it is time to talk about culture.

Culture is the notion that I should do something because other people do it. Those people can be alive, they can be dead but, according to the culture police, I am nevertheless required to emulate their behavior because we may or may not share some racial or geographic proximity.

Take weddings. Our culture says I am supposed to be a gold-digging whore who demands that my husband go into debt to put a stone on my finger that some child slave in the Congo probably died mining. The bigger and more ostentatious the stone, the greater the evidence of his love. So when I told my husband that it would be a non-starter to ever marry anyone financially foolish enough to waste money he does not have on an item that neither builds equity nor earns interest, my friends and co-workers were perplexed. I'm supposed to get a rock because I am supposed to be a brainless moron who does what everyone else does. Otherwise, how can all the shallow bimbos in the room sit and compare rings to see whose husband loves her more? That's culture.

Arab culture says that hospitality is number one. Literally, you can bring shame to your family if you aren't the most dazzling, generous host who kneels at the feet of your guests. It sounds great in theory until someone plops a 7th helping of grape leaves on your plate, accusing you of not eating enough. Jeez. You're about to explode and you are staring at your plate in terror because you do not want to offend your hosts. My husband, at one point, refused to go to my parents' house for dinner because my dad has this annoying habit of making sure that your plate never empties. "That's our culture" is no consolation when you are sick from overeating.

Soul food. It is great, but the shit will kill you. And yet 400-pound Black women continue to convince themselves that they are beautiful, that diabetes and high blood pressure are okay and that no other food tastes as good. An old friend is from Alabama and her sisters refuse to eat anything that is baked instead of fried. That is their culture and they are sticking to it, whether it sends them to the grave at 30 or not.

And do not get me started on half-ass China. Hubby and I call it the "almost" factor. When we were in China last year, we noticed that things were done well, but not quite right -- things were almost good. Because of their annoying obsession with saving and losing face, the Chinese never admit when they are wrong; and, what's worse, is that they can never tell anyone there is a mistake in something, even if it's not their fault, because it might cause someone else to lose face. Think about that next time to you get on a Boeing plane that incorporates parts made in China.

It is not all bad. There are good things about cultures. If a pattern of behavior you engage in is part of your culture, but also makes sense and brings harmony to your world, great. But when culture becomes religion, that is where we part ways. If your only justification for doing something is because it is your culture, you have made culture your God and you are no different than a kamikaze fighter or suicide bomber. You can be talked into anything as long as enough people around you do it too.

On BombsOverBaghdad's blog, a commenter suggested that one would be lost without culture, but I strongly disagree. Indeed, I think it is quite the opposite. Refusing to define yourself around one narrow set of pre-conditioned behaviors provides you room to learn and experience so much in life; to pick and choose the best each culture has to offer to tailor what is right for you. I'll have Iranian food for dinner, green tea from China in the morning and listen to some salsa music in the car.

Some time ago, Mr. Wilson sent me a quote attributed to someone whose name escapes me, which observed that "Men of intellect are of the same religion." That bit of wisdom has stuck with me and, taking it a step further, I believe people of intellect are of the same culture. It is those without intellect that must rely upon shallow similarities in food and music to feel a sense of belonging.

48 Comments:

At 5:54 AM, September 17, 2006 , Blogger Andrew said...

Wow, that's quite an intellectual plateful this early in the morning, but interesting to read. I wonder if there are those who take great comfort in the type of culture you describe, similar to those who take great comfort in their church. Perhaps the culture conformists revel in the familiar, in not having to constantly make decisions and define things for themselves. I wonder how much of it is related to personality types. You seem to be the type who WANTS to make your own choices and are happiest doing so. I am much the same. Interesting read.

Andrew
To Love, Honor and Dismay

 
At 9:12 AM, September 17, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Andrew,

You are right on point about culture being for those who need the familiar. And I do not. Indeed, the familiar becomes dull after a while.

Thanks for stopping by.

 
At 9:34 AM, September 17, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

All theory, philosophy, law, or hypothesis are man-made and thus subject to change at mankind`s whims.
All facts, found or future, have always existed. Fact is nature`s foundation; facts are never repudiated by facts. Opinions are never facts.

Nature instilled in all mankind, primary sexual desires and interest to assure the procreation of the species. Nature provides all limitations on human activity. Nature has assured that mankind cannot do that which is unnatural. If it is possible to do , it is natural.

No violation of natural law is possible. The consequences of all human activities are natural. Nature is not ambiguous, nature is not arbitrary.

In ancient Spartan culture girl on girl sex was encouraged. This was not a big deal and happened without fanfare during their full moon river celebration on the banks of the river that flowed thrue ancient Laconia.
This occured for about 700 hundred years , and was a part of their culture.
They believed that it increased the bonding together of their culture and it was a pure and natural way to think about an element that went into making a good culture. It was a given that no one thought to much about.
In our day and age this practice would be considered rather extreme, odd, or perhaps dangerous and illegal, by many.

Culture is what we make it. Nature provides us a lot of leeway to do as we please.
Certain people think because of certain brainwashing that they possess the right culture.
That is comical I guess.

 
At 11:01 AM, September 18, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

That provided a good chuckle, and I know what you’re saying, but let me stand up for culture a little bit – even if there’s no scientific basis for it. ;-)

Not that I’m accusing you of this at all, but one can define culture so as to be an easy target or one can define it in an endless number of broader ways that include a great buffet of goodies, some of which is tasty and some stale and unhealthy. Culture is not something we are born with, after all, and I think there is a basic culture of mankind that we all share in and all cultures share in to various extent.

There is more to culture than social custom and you have to see much that is in any culture as a response to the history. Chinese reluctance to lose face may have something to do with millennia of corrupt and tyrannical rule. Show defect and you face summary execution, but that’s where the poetry of DuFu comes from too and can’t we choose which fits our nobler instinct to define that culture? The culture of boundless and transcendental compassion is part of China too and it was so long before Jesus learned to tie his sandals.

Isn’t Egyptian culture about Rabih Abou-Khalil as much as about the poetry of Sinue or the enthusiastic Zahi Hawass and mathematics and astronomy and architecture as about Mubarak and repression and overfeeding your guests?

Culture is history, in fact and history has to be known that we can transcend what needs to be transcended and that’s where we, as Americans get into trouble.
You have to remember that the “tradition” of the diamond ring is about artificial culture; the fairly recent attempt to graft the urge to buy a product onto our romantic history by the DeBeers enterprise and it’s too new to be called tradition and too banal for me to dignify by calling it culture. If Americans confuse entertainment and advertising with culture, that’s the fault of our ignorance, not of American culture.

I would hate to throw out Tom Paine and Mark Twain and John Muir and Walt Whitman and Duke Ellington along with the bigotry, the three stone anniversary necklace, jingoism, superstition, xenophobia, racism, Disco, Republican politics and watery beer.

 
At 11:15 AM, September 18, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

That was excellent. I'm somewhat on the fence because I both enjoy being exposed to new and different cultures as well as being bathed in my own. I guess the key is that I don't view mine as "superior," but just part of the world's tapestry.

Human beings have something inside of us that makes us want to be part of the "in group." It's a very strong instinct, and only a small percentage of people can overcome and think independently.

I love reading Jesus' feelings towards the Scribes and the Pharisees becaues the Scibes and the Pharisees make up the vast majority of people. They worship their culture, their money, or the "process" of religion. They forget the whole point.

 
At 11:17 AM, September 18, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

Thanks I.I., I've been waiting for your take on this.

One of Websters definitions is as follows "The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns....".

Many of our behavior patterns start from the Golden Rule, and this is a good thing. Treat others as you wish to be treated. If you examine a number of the cultural examples you've discussed, you will find a core principle taken to an extreme. There is nothing wrong with a host wanting to show deference and kindness to household guests, and providing a filling repast.

Anything taken to an extreme is troublesome, and force feeding guests, and making it culturally difficult for the guest to decline is a problem.

Wedding rings. Yes a symbol. A symbol of your commitment to each other. Do I have a problem with this symbol? No. Do I have a problem with couple in a relationship relating the respective love or caring in the relationship to the size of the ring? Absolutely.

My #2 son is getting married in about a month. The parents of the bride plus my wife and I are making sure the wedding reception will be a nice time for the guests, and the bride and groom. It will be a nice celebration. To use your Diamond size analogy, this reception will not be a 3 carat size reception, but it will be a damn nice nonetheless.

Ok, I.I. We all want some nice things in our lives. A nice home, nice clothes, maybe a nice car.

Does that Beemer you drive have anything at all to do with culture, or do you simply drive it because you want to drive a safe vehicle? :).

I guess my take is that I see many things in a variety of cultures that has a nice core value, but has gone out of whack somewhere along the line.

 
At 2:56 PM, September 18, 2006 , Blogger Birdy said...

To say that this post is 'charged' is an understatement.

 
At 3:12 PM, September 18, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Visa, Master Card or Amex?

 
At 4:57 PM, September 18, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

I haven't even read the whole post II... but the first paragraphs, on the wedding "rock" resonated with me.

I cannot understand why a woman’s would want -- and a man buy -- such a useless piece of rock as an expression of love.

I have friends that spent upwards of $20k on the rings... and $60k on the ceremony. This is beyond appalling to me -- beyond ostentatious.

And it's stupid.

I've said the exact same thing to my spouse -- no expensive rings, no expensive ceremony. We'll use a fraction of that money to go on a nice honeymoon.

 
At 5:14 PM, September 18, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

wow....what a topic...
weddings, and the women/men who have them.

Ummm, IF....you're the type of woman who values the worth of your " soon-to-be-husband", based upon the size of your engagement ring AND wedding ring??
Fellahs??? Time to look for another woman; that one's obviously material.
IF, you're the kind of guy who BELIEVES love is based upon Karat size??
Ladies?? Find another man, cause " all flash " doesn't define love either.
I'd like to believe, the value of the whole deal, is what's given out of love AND respect from both to one another.

Then again, I'd be the kind of guy who'll spend all DAY, spending quarters to get that ONE ring I know she'd love!!!
Or, if YOU"RE the type of lady who EXPECTS 5 Karat Diamond???
Pffffffffffttt....nice knowing ya?
Don't let the door hit your backside on the way out, and btw??
Your time ends at midnight...

That's just me tho......0 = /

0 = )

 
At 7:17 AM, September 19, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

You should be aware that for many people a $30,000 ring isn't a big deal and to be sure, it will be worth a lot more than a $100,000 car will be in a few years, but I think the point is that the percieved need for this expenditure is something that isn't as much a part of our cultural traditions as it is a manufactured need, a fake tradition we accept because we can no longer tell culture from advertising.

The prices of diamonds and rhe rarety of diamonds are completely manipulated by a very few suppliers and the perception that we always have given diamond rings to a fiance is fiction. We no longer get our culture from our parents and elders, we get it from corporations with something to sell.

Perhaos some day, the ethnic basis of culture I.I. talks about will be gone and all we will have is advertising.

 
At 8:32 AM, September 19, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

CAPT hit it: Americans make no distiction between culture and marketing.

Take Xmas for example - christians didn't even celebrate it approx 100 years ago. The day we celebrate today was created by Hallmark and Macy's.

 
At 9:18 AM, September 19, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

As far as I understand it in the commercial a guy gives either his girlfriend or his matronly old wife a diamond, and a kind of flushed excitement goes over the women, and she immediately is stimulated to want to engage in a most basic and natural activity, with much abandon.
Is that advertising, or did they get it from real life.? It`s a little blurry. Please educate me.

 
At 12:06 PM, September 19, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

We no longer get our culture from our parents and elders, we get it from corporations with something to sell.

Captain - this is SO true!!

And as to your earlier point, there is no doubt that culture has good sides, but those positives should be the things that survive as universals and the rest discarded. Those positives don't need culture as their reason for being (can't remember the French word that's usually used for that phrase).

 
At 1:15 PM, September 19, 2006 , Anonymous Jason B said...

You'd likely be fascinated by Kohlberg's theories of moral development, which extend the idea of the social/cultural automaton to the field of moral reasoning. Slaves to culture remind me of people on stage three or four of Kohlberg's hierarchy. See http://tinyurl.com/l4af5

Note that any "intellectual" participating in his or her own "intellectual" culture may in fact still be identifying with a group, whose ideologies and norms, when viewed from a distance, are remarkably homogenous.

It is only through rigorous questioning of all beliefs and behaviors prior to accepting them that an individual can truly separate the influence of culture or norms from his or her unique take thereon.

 
At 1:26 PM, September 19, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

corporate culture = corruption (if you can get away with it, then it must be ok)

government culture = corruption, (don't ask questions, we know what we are doing)

W's culture = the ends justify the means, you gotta break a few eggs if you want to bake a cake

conservative culture = he who ends up with the most toys wins

culture we want = the strong look out for the weak, the moral standard bearer, our words equal our actions, defending our Constitution, and the rights of man

culture we have = the strong manipulate and abuse the weak, no morality, our words "my way or the highway", defending corporate profits, an in bed with your enemies

 
At 3:54 PM, September 19, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

One definition of a criminal ; An individual who lacks the capital to start a corporation.

 
At 5:07 PM, September 19, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

Gee mr sleep, perhaps you should get some.....sleep that is. It would probably help your issues with life.

Govt culture, conrserve culture...lol you're funny.

I believe the MAYAN"s had a culture. But, to say GOVT has/is a culture??
Only a lefty would subscribe to that crap.

Must be the:

Liberal whacko's lefty definition of their culture: Lie and modify words which mean what we want them too, while subverting what others say and/or think, then call ourselves progressives and tolerant of others while screaming, STFU YOU CONSERVE SOB!!

Yup.....typical lefty stance to me.

But culture?? Hardly.

 
At 7:49 PM, September 19, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

Any group can have a "culture" -- a people, a race or an organization.

Inaj -- I'm sure you've heard of "corporate culture" -- why not government culture. Especially when it obviously exists: e.g. -

K-street culture
Conservative culture
etc.

 
At 7:20 AM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

Leon,

Let's just say that anyone who views things different that you is a "lefty".

Whatever stirs your drink.

You on the whole are a straight shooter, and have a passion for your views in life, which I admire.

I am cut from the same cloth. Let's just say we view things differently, yet we are driven by a similar passion for our views.

The irony is that your Conservative party is the KING of manipulation, spin, misinformation, lying, selling their souls for a pot of gold. Doing whatever is required to get elected. W if he had a single fiber of moral backbone would have spoken up about Darfur 6 years ago. Yet he chooses now to speak up about up, trying to save the November elections. He doesn't give a F*ck about Darfur (no Oil there). Conservatives don't give a F*ck about Darfur.

I just want to be clear about this. If there is any grey area, let me know.

Those that you accuse of being lefty's are pretty damn straight.

 
At 7:58 AM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

The phrase is raison d'être in French, or Existenzberechtigung in German, for what it's worth.

But don't you love people who rant about Liberal wackos in fractured English and shattered syntax. It's got to the point where "Conservative culture" and paranoid schizophrenia and selective aphasia are as hard to distinguish between as they are to extinguish.

Perhaps the culture, or maybe it's a subculture, of American conservatives has as as its Existenzberechtigung, the need for those excluded from the greater culture by reason of their humiliating inadequacies and inabilities, to create a political or pseudophilosophical bubble in which they feel justified: a loser's club, to put it in the vernacular.

Some would present inaranjoiv or inanejerkoiv or whoever he is as evidence for the survival of Neanderthal genes in modern Homo Sapiens, but I seem to get into trouble when I talk about genetics. . .

 
At 9:11 AM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

Ah, Mr Sleep...
I'm a straight shooter?? Hmmm, well, thank you...I think.

As to the comment about Conserves and W not caring about Darfur??

Personally? I don't think the WORLD gives a rats azz about Africa as a whole. If they did, EVERYONE would intervene when those people decide to commit genocide on themselves...ESPECIALLY the Europeans who used to OWN the place
( In one form or another )

Yup, we sure do see things from our OWN perspective. You're pretty consistant as well. That's good to know.....cause I'd hate to deal with a wishy washy moron who can't pick a side of the fence to jump on if they needed to save their own skins.

Dedicated people have made a stance. It's the " unknowns " that we play for/too.

Oh, and as to holding diff views??
Believe me, some of my " righty " side thinks I'm too militant for even them......then again, their moderate Repubs who need a backbone.

Have a great day.

As for cpt froggy....er, foog, or is it cpt zulu? Well, whatever, ...I can do Ebonics too, if you'd prefer, or type INTERNET speak ( which is what your silly azz defines as broken english etc, etc ) You should see me on AOL while chatting. 0 = ]

But, in keeping with your ' overly correct use/skills in the english vanacular', perhaps you can explain this comment YOU made:


" Perhaos some day, the ethnic basis of culture I.I. talks about will be gone and all we will have is advertising. "

Perhaos?? wtf is that?

duh.

 
At 9:24 AM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

Leo, fair enough.

Yes, the straight shooter comment was a complement and not a back handed one either.

 
At 10:46 AM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

The religious cranks believe that some day the lion and the lamb will lay down together and nuzzle.
In that beautiful and surreal day perhaps Fogg and Inaran will also give each other joyous hugs.

In the mean time the divide and conquer approach that the system use`s to keep people from figuring out what is actually going on is humming along.

Right, Left, Dem, Repub, These are all only brainwashing constructs, and the people that subscribe are soldiers of abstract concepts, mere pawns.

 
At 11:37 AM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Dear Inanejakov, if the best you can do is dredge up a typo it's not worth the response and yes, I'm sure you are in your element on AOL. Like Republican politics, "internetspeak" is a refuge for idiots who can't think clearly enough to write clearly enough to sound intelligent enough to be payed attention to outside of AOL.

Did you think you would get respect for your post? You're looking to be irritating and dismissive but you haven't got the talent for it and so you'll get all the respect any other invertibrate is due and nothing more.

 
At 11:56 AM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Skip,

I think "brainwashing constructs" is a bit extreme, but yes - false dichotomies are the tools and people who talk about everything in terms of left and right or liberal and conservative are the fools.

Neither one of us of course is the first to point out the problems with Manichean or Zoroastrian or Aristotilian dualisms, but you see it in the fool's rage in "I'd hate to deal with a wishy washy moron who can't pick a side of the fence to jump on if they needed to save their own skins."

For some people like him and George Bush there's always a fence and there are only ever two sides and one is always good and the other is always bad. It's like a person in a world of two dimensions calling someone from a three dimensional world a wishy washy moron. Actually it's not like it, it is it.
Yes sometimes it is the tool of propagandists, but it relies on the comfortable, self satisfied stupidity and flawed cognitive functions of our "internet speak" public.

But as to utopian fantasy and its inevitable dependence upon ignoring one thing or another, What is that lion going to eat? Someone usually winds up starving in all the visionary futures I hear about. And of course, the sheep will overpopulate and starve without the predator too. I admit to being a skeptic, but so far every grand scheme to remake the world has had gross faults that its proponents never seem to see and chastize others for seeing.

 
At 1:03 PM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

ooooh, I've been " put in my place by some fanatical intellecutual who sports a cute little photo of....whatever that's supposed to represent." I"m touched.

sniff, sniff.

It's the net, you nimrod. You want to do a thesis?? Type up a letter for your college or whatever INtellecutal assmunch you wish to debate with.
You want perfection?? Get a grip and buy a dictionary. ( Or use word check if you're too lazy )
Short of that, I give a ratz behind what YOU think my skills are, how I portray them, and whether or not they get credit/respect they deserve or otherwise.

I guess, the day I ponder to worry, what some ' hack ' says/does on the net cause he/she/they/them sports a little photo of ( whatever that is ) is the day I'll switch to being a DEMO.

Doubtful, that'll cause you heartburn as well.....imagine that, me....a liberal democrat.

wow.

I need a drink for that one!
0 = ]

 
At 6:07 PM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

In case you didn`t know it Foggs bazaar looking icon is the Devil. I think that is right.? Seems I saw it somewhere , and it was called that.
Some kind of primitive culture, I forget which one used the fogg symbol as a representation of the Devil.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I think they used this picture to scare the opposing tribe.

 
At 7:03 PM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

It's a pirate, dude. Edward Teach to be more specific; a guy with a lot of guns and boats and an attitude toward self important twits that I can appreciate.

You may or may not have noticed that I was agreeing with you, but of course if you need to make up fantasies about devils so that you can trot out your favorite arguments about primitive cultures and people who speak English or whatever arguments you actually know how to win - hey - knock your socks off if you got 'em.

Oh yeah, and it's bizarre - a Bazaar is someplace where they sell things.

 
At 7:33 PM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

From Wikipidea - "The word culture, from the Latin colo, -ere, with its root meaning "to cultivate", generally refers to patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activity significance."

And..."Culture has been called "the way of life for an entire society." As such, it includes codes of manners, dress, language, religion, rituals, norms of behavior and systems of belief Various definitions of culture reflect differing theories for understanding — or criteria for evaluating — human activity."

Culture is important. Our "way of life" is distinct as defined by our Constitution and the traditions we enjoy that represent our heritage, i.e., the sense of fair play we attribute to the "Golden Rule."

For those who try to stay outside the "culture" are dismissing the value of that great document and the message it contains.

All men are created equal....not economically, but equal in the eyes of God, and the founders made it clear that governments are a reflection of the the freedom of people to choose their government and not that the government "gives rights."

Our government is restricted and told what we will let them do.

To me that is this "culture" or way of life.

FAR.

 
At 7:52 PM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

I still think its a devil. You are putting us on with that pirate stuff.

Is there a word for people who are annoyed and become bellicose when their sensibilities are offended by grammatical , what they think are heresies.? I think I have read about people that suffer from this. Awordaphobia I think it is.
They have 12 step meetings for these unfortunates. This is not all bad because it is a relief for some of these people to commune with people similarly afflicted.
I guess the first step is the terrible admission that they are concerned about something that has little or no value.
That is tough. I am sure that people attending these meetings have balled their eyes out when they did that.

Thanks for agreeing? , it appears you are fishing for some kind of compliment for that.?
I am an individual, we don`t care if people agree with us or not.
Besides , why would you not agree to a commonly known thing.?
I mean you apparently are a contrary , but I suppose even you do not argue with yourself when you are shaving in the morning.
Do You.?
Well if you do that is your business
and I suppose that at times you feel that it may be called for.
This is just a wild guess on my part.

 
At 8:00 PM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Free agency , I hate to tell you this but there is no god , and the constitution is a piece of shit. The powers that be like people like you. People that accept things. Have you ever considered that you might be a victim of belief.
As Mr. Fogg has said, our culture is fake and created by the corporate media to make the drones buy stuff.
I think he said that any way. Although he would probably argue that also.

 
At 11:44 PM, September 20, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

skip sievert said...
" Free agency , I hate to tell you this but there but there is no god , and the constitution is a piece of shit."

I will accept that you don't "believe" there is a God.

Facts are truths. While conclusions and opinions may or may not be. Get the difference?

People who have intelligence draw conclusions and opinions based upon observations and facts. Those conclusions and opinions may or may not be true.

Please give the facts that you drew from to get those conclusions so we may have an intelligent discussion instead of just stating your opinions as fact and expecting others to just accept them.

You will admit that you were stating your opinion, won't you?

I stated what I believed to be Culture by quoting Wikipedia and then I stated my opinion as to why I believe it is important.

Would you like to try again and clarify that your statement was your opinion and that you weren't trying to say it as a fact?

FAR.

 
At 9:04 AM, September 21, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Dear Mr. Sievert,

Or should I say Misters?

"I am an individual, we don`t care if people agree with us or not. "

Is that the imperial plural or do you consider yourself singular and plural at the same time like the Elohim?

Who cares? Certainly not me/we/us. If II wants her forum taken over by contentious, abusive foul-mouthed trolls, it's her concern. If you didn't care who aggrees with you you wouldn't be here trying to impress people (and failing so badly at it)

So the Constitution is a piece of shit and you're not looking to provoke a fight but I am? Perhaps a turn at the mirror would reflect something interesting - or maybe not.

Anyway stay out of the Florida straights - it's no place for a landlubber and things happen out there.

Porto calmo da abrigo, Senhor.

Assim
Derradeiro momento
Silencio

 
At 10:31 AM, September 21, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

I find these entries somewhat entertaining.

Fogg, FAR, II and others attempt to use logic and reason to make points... while people like Inar... and skip just spout -- well, they just spout.

Fogg -- I enjoy reading your well though-out and logical replies, but you are simply arguing with someone who displays the intellectual ability of an elementary school student. I don't say this to be mean-spirited, but just from a straightforward analysis of his incongruent and "ranting" responses.

FAR -- you too are trying to deal with someone who has made some good points, but tends to respond emotionally as soon as someone questions one of his suppositions.

Interesting juxtaposition tho. I get the feeling if I could see this "debate" live it would be highly entertaining!

 
At 11:37 AM, September 21, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

I might suggest that some of you look up the concept of Rhetorical polemic. This is the basis of the debates that the Greeks engaged in . The Greeks were known as the greatest debaters of all time , and the most famous debater of all time was Demosthenes. Are you following me.?
The whole object in a debate is to try and get people to think.
Asking questions, raising points, ridicule, answering points that you see will be brought up before they are brought up, and so forth.
This is what is referred to as free speech at its best
It was not considered fair debate even in a rhetorical polemic to lie, twist the truth, not be sincere, or purposefully lead people in a wrong direction to get to some true fact.

Free agency rules , or Far, you are absolutely right I was stating my opinion.
While our constitution is an interesting document from the past, I don`t think it means much now.
If you google my name my book is available for you to read and it also describes the organization I belong to , and our desire to end the current system and start a different one.
Our approach to that is very detailed , and my book and the precedent book of our movement is available for free at my website as listed here or linked from it. Again it is free.
As far as god I don`t think it matters that much one way or another. The stupid middle eastern type god? No way. To ridiculous. My opinion.
To R.O.R. I will spout and say that I would like for you to tell me , educate me as to how I can be more like Fogg in my arguments.
Are you crazy.? You must be if you think Fogg use`s logical arguments
Besides being a nut case , he can debate a little though so I suppose he has some redeeming grace, although very little.

 
At 1:06 PM, September 21, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

You twits sound like you want to be DR's....lolol
Funny.
Oh, I suppose you can't HANG with the gramitcal stuff that's typed by moi......lol, that's funny too.

You're right ROR...in person,this WOULD be entertaining...kinda like when a DR spouts off with the medical crap, and then, ( gasp! how DARE that patient ) tells them, " That's fine and dandy Doc?? Now, how about you try that explanation where I can understand it, and NOT in medicaleese. "

The dumbfounded looks they give....too funny.

Alas, now WE must adhere to other matters of importance, ere I once again go forth to grace the poorly masses who needs my attentions.
Sigh, fair thee well, wannabe scholars of a vocabulary that impresses no one ( cept maybe yerselves )I shan't return till laters!

0 = )

 
At 12:02 PM, September 23, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

FAR,

The Constitution is our law, not our culture. While I will agree that the former influences the latter, it is quite apparent from the latest push for dictatorship by Bush & Co. that the Constitution is 100% at odds with popular culture these days. Unfortunately, the Constitution is losing the battle.

 
At 5:42 PM, September 24, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

ii,

I agree with most of what you just said with the exception that both parites are attacking the Constitution.

The Left wants to destroy Economic Freedom by moving to Socialism, and some on the Right want to have us accept Security at the expense of Freedom.

Socialism is at odds with Competition and Competition is at the heart of freedom, for as once was said "he who controls a man's purse strings, controls the man." I think that is in the Federalist Papers.

FAR.

 
At 6:42 AM, September 25, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Hey Free Agency,

You are a severely brain washed person.
That is my value judgement.
Do you ever think outside the box.?
You are a victim of belief.
Someone spoon fed you a bunch of silly ideas.
The second paragraph that you wrote tells me that you do not have a creative, indedpendant bone in your body , and that you are an unconscious pawn.
Do you always fall for abstract concepts to make you fight, work, and argue as a robot for the power possessor's.?

 
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