Wednesday, October 25, 2006

People Of The Lie

Hubby and I had dinner with one of his colleagues and colleague's wife the other night. Other engineer-lawyer couples make for entertaining dinner discussion and this couple never fails to deliver. Wife is an uber-liberal public defender with an unending catalog of fascinating stories from work.

Dinner conversation begins with the easy topics but, of course, inevitably leads to religion and politics. Wife explained that, although she is a liberal, she can respect a Republican with divergent views so long as his or her opinions have logical foundations. In her analytical, lawyerly way, Wife described an exchange she had with a Republican friend of hers in which they tried to pinpoint their point of divergence. "After going back and forth, struggling to find the fundamental different between our political beliefs, we found it - he thinks there are people who are irredeemably evil and I do not."

"Interesting", I responded, "I tend to agree with your Republican friend".

Free Agency Rules and I recently debated the concept of evil and several of the points overlapped with my discussion with Wife.

"People Of The Lie", by Christian psychiatrist Scott Peck, is the beginning point for a real discussion about evil. In this thought-provoking work, Peck approached the concept of evil from a psychiatric perspective -- evil is the opposite of life (as evil is live spelled backwards), i.e. it is anything that has its purpose to distort reality.

The symptoms of an evil personality disorder are
  • consistent destructive scapegoating behavior, which may often be quite subtle.
  • excessive, albeit covert, intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury.
  • pronounced concern with one's public image and self-image of respectability, contributing to a a stability of lifestyle but also to a pretentiousness and denial of hateful feelings or vengeful motives.
  • intellectual deviousness, with an increased likelihood of disturbance of thinking in times of stress.
People who suffer from this disorder are people of the lie. Who they are, how they are weaved seamlessly into our society without notice and the destructive nature of their disorder is illuminated through several case studies in the book. They are people who are so narcissistic that they would rather distort reality, kill, lie and cheat than ever admit their own imperfection.

Are they people beyond redemption?

Applying Peck's definition and my own observations in life, I remain of the belief that there are people of the lie who are beyond redemption absent some drastic remedy such as a lobotomy or suffering brain damage.

We can point to the easy examples of evil such as Cheney, Stalin, Mao and Hitler, but those are cliche extremes. It is the local, everyday evil with which we contend that is of interest to me. No matter how hard I try, I will never be able to grasp what motivates a grown man to adorn a white cloth and burn crosses in someone's yard. Perhaps there are KKK members who were young and immature, but for such an organization to survive, there must necessarily be a core of fanatics who live and die for the cause. Those people are evil. The Catholic priest who, in the morning, doles out the bread and wine to the masses and, in the afternoon, shares the real treats with the altar boys. Evil. Consistent destructive scapegoating and excessive intolerance to criticism are part and parcel of this administration and the media lapdogs at Fox News. A fundamental lack of objectivity and honesty, regardless of what the facts are. Evil. Oh, and add Rush Limbaugh to the list for mocking Michael J. Fox. Super Evil.

The human psyche is like a computer hard drive - it does not matter if you hit the delete button, the information is there and will always be there. Permanently. You can try to put new information on top of it, but the only way to keep the old information from fighting its way to the top is through consistent effort and introspection. As most narcissists think they are perfect and, thus, do not see themselves as having a problem that requires consistent effort to fix, they will never put in the work that is required to overcome the evil that is who they are.

They are beyond redemption.


At 8:21 AM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

Strange that your symptoms of evil personality disorder seem almost like the description of the religious personality or even of those who hide their flaws behind political or other dogmatic beliefs.

Can such people ever be changed? Data would be hard to come by, but some believers do give it up.

At 8:47 AM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Actually, Peck makes the point that many people of the lie take cover behind religion or civic participation.

At 11:19 AM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

The religious person is the opposite of the scientist. The former “knows” he has the truth while the latter (sometimes struggles) to remain somewhat objective and discover the truth.

Somehow this society has bought into the concept that certainty – in the face of contradictory evidence – is a virtue… While skepticism and objective inquiry is “weak” and undesirable in a leader. Of course, such thinking puts a society on the path to destruction – literally – since those dogmatists in power get to spew forth any illogical conclusion and as long as it can be tenuously tied to some popular dogma it will be swallowed.

In that sense, the majority of our society is evil.

At 11:47 AM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

The part about the priests handing out the real treats had me howling out loud in my offic!!!!! LOL!! Where do you get this stuff!!!?? LOL!!

I say the opposite of life is the loss of HOPE. Without hope, there is no reason to keep living. Believing that certain people are irretrievably(sp) evil (as Bush does) is a dangerous, and possibly depressing, way to look at the world.

I know many people who have come a long way. Not saying Cheney will turn into MLK, but I do know people who have done some really bad shit but turned things around.

At 12:51 PM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...


I don't think that the majority of people are irredeemable, but there is a cadre who are evil to the last drop - Kissinger, Cheney, Hitler, Mao. Unrepentant to the end.

There is a difference between evil people and people who do "bad" things. Indeed, look at the symptoms of the evil personality disorder and it says nothing about people who do bad things. It speaks to their characters, their narcissism, their extreme obsession with being seen in a good light. That is different than a guy who robs a liquor store.

I don't see why it should be depressing to accept the world for what it is. There always have been good and evil and there always will be. I think it is depressing to have unrealistic hopes for things that aren't going to happen because that leaves you in a constant state of disappointment.

What gives me hope is the existence of people and outlets who speak truth to power. The fact that there are bloggers fighting the good fight, Hugo Chavez saying out loud what other leaders don't have the guts to say, Democracy Now offering news that the corporations censor, etc. Hope comes from the knowledge that there is a counterweight.

When 2 boxers get in a ring, hope does not make a featherweight the equal of a heavyweight. To hope the featherweight wins the fight is the height of emotional immaturity. Hope is finding or training another heavyweight who can present a legitimate challenge.

At 1:23 PM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

II states:

" When 2 boxers get in a ring, hope does not make a featherweight the equal of a heavyweight. To hope the featherweight wins the fight is the height of emotional immaturity. Hope is finding or training another heavyweight who can present a legitimate challenge. "

Hmmm, interesting analogy. Using fighters that is. Perhaps, we should use another in this place, given you believe HOPE isn't lt wt vs hvy wt.

Let's say, Miday 1942.
6 Main battle fleet carriers, with proven/tested pilots, flying THE best aircraft of the era at that time, in that theater.
2 Lonely US carriers, flying outmatched Planes.

Did we actually HOPE to win?
Or were we disposed to wait ( as you suggest ) to get bigger/better/evenly matched carriers to decide the battle.


The LEAST you can do, is try. The WORST that can happen, is you fail.
WAITING till you get " even, better, bigger " is the excuse to use when you have no hope, nor even TRY to improve anything.

Neat topic....most humorous.

At 1:26 PM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...


I'm somewhat surprised you consider Mao to be part of that group. I know some folks who are kinda like you and me--Democracy Now watchers--that swear Mao was a great man. I don't know much about him, except that he wrote a Little Red Book.

I guess I see your position more clearly now. And I agree with it. Maybe your opinion and mine are not mutually exclusive. I think we're basically saying the same thing, except that I don't know if even Kissinger is irredeemable. Or maybe I'm wrong.

But how do we determine who is "evil?"

I once saw an interview with a Klansmen who had admitted beating and maming black people in the 1950s and 60s, who, upon reading King's "Letter From Birmingham Jail" realized he was "on the wrong side of God" and has been doing charity work since.

Perhaps "hope" takes "audacity." (smile)

At 3:42 PM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

II, can't believe it, but I'm siding with Leo.

In my mind there is always hope. Yes, logic will tell you that the odds are stacked against you. However, the underdog comes out on top a surprising number of times.

Leo took to a military analogy and a good one at that.

How about the Miracle on ice? A bunch of Minor League and College Hockey players beating a Russian team, that dominated the best of the NHL.

David vs Goliath of sorts.

Belief is a powerful thing, maybe the most powerful thing in the world. Belief can be channeled for good or evil (warped belief).

Yes, there are those who are unredeemable. Pure evil. Sold their Souls to the Devil for a pot of gold, or in the pursuit of pure power.

However, there is always hope for the future.

At 3:43 PM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

ROR, you had a helluva take as well.

At 5:39 PM, October 25, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

So do you think any of the cliche evil people were redeemable?

At 7:43 AM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

No. I guess my perspective is more there is hope for society in general. Most "cliche" evil ones are hopeless, but there are others, a few silent voices, working against those in power that keep hope alive.

I didn't mean to confused the discussion. You started with a basic premise, a basic definition of evil provided by the author.

It is an interesting view, not one just yet, that I have fully digested.

Still there is a crossover point, a point of no return (from the darkside).

Some people are just wired differently and start out life on the dark side, others are drawn over. I know you explored this topic in depth with FAR.

It can be debated till the cows come home. The fact is some people are redeemable that we think are not, and others that we think are not, are redeemable(if that makes any sense at all).

At 7:59 AM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Peck is an idiot and a mouthpiece for the born agains. He perpetuates the idea of good and evil like the bible and other half assed crap that is known as religion.
I consider him a disinformation monster for the religious right.

At 9:04 AM, October 26, 2006 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was thinking that the symptoms you put forth are strikingly similar to Sociopathic tendencies. I just read a book called "The Sociopath next Door" which treds on similar ground to what you're talking about.

Yeah, there are definately irredemable people. They do not have the capacity for Caring in the same way that a dyslexic does not have the capacity to process symbols the way others do. A dyslexic can train his mind to function another way, but will never suddenly be "Fixed". So too for the Sociopath. They will never suddenly and magically care.

For the record, I'm not in any way saying dyslexics are sociopaths or making any sort of direct connection. It's a thin example, but an example nontheless.

At 10:19 AM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

I think all people have the capacity to be redeemable. I acknowledge that most of them WON'T ever be redeemed. But if one has a brain, they can change.

Shet, I know I've changed alot!! :-) I know some girlz in college that would say I was irredeemable. :-)

At 10:51 AM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

Yeah BOB, but I highly doubt you were evil.

Birdy's example of sociopaths is 100% on point. Please tell me - is Charles Manson redeemable? Would Jeffrey Dahmer be redeemable? I doubt it.

At 11:05 AM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

I have to agree with II – there are simply certain mental conditions that preclude “redemption” or change….

I hate to bring it up again, but another example is sexuality: BoB – do you think you could be “cured” of heterosexuality and honestly find yourself solely attracted to men? Similarly, homosexual men cannot be cured. (However, I must allow for the fact that sexuality is not a binary condition – but people who identify as hetero or homo obviously have brains that are wired a particular way. Whether its nurture or nature misses the point).

There are people whose mental process is simply beyond repair. Identifying them is difficult – at best…. But II brings up some obvious examples.

At 2:02 PM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

RoR says:

" There are people whose mental process is simply beyond repair. Identifying them is difficult – at best…. "

0 = /

ooookay, this is tooo easy to pass up.....ahem....did/do you mean liberalism??

and speaking of, when's the blog comment going to hit upon FOX vs RUSH???

and WHY did the demo's front Michael Fox, instead of Muhommad Ali for the parkinson ad?

just a thought.......0 = )

( ps?? I"m beyond ' fixing '.....twas tried once, got thrown out cause I was a bad influence on the other inmates )

0 = )

At 4:20 PM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger mrsleep said...

Fox was ventured forth instead of Muhammed Ali, because we felt sorry for the tub-o-lard, Rush.

You know and I know Rush would never had the guts to take on Muhammed publicly.

Fox? All Rush had to do is pop a couple of Viagra to get "up" for picking on a little Canadian lad.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Rush had a few things in common with Congressman Foley.

and oh, Leo? Wouldn't you say that Wingnuts have taken a "liberal" view of Dubya's past transgressions?

At 5:00 PM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

I really hate Peck, He used to be a head doctor for the V.A. when they did a lot of experimenting on people.
To me he is like a Nazi doctor. Lobotomy any one to believe....,, right.???

He is a born again , who connects his idea of good with a brainwashed Christian concept.
Glad to hear that Iranajoy could not be fixed.
Nature provides our limits of what we can do , and to connect that with the bullshit of belief/religion is rather intellectually pathetic.

At 5:08 PM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Let me add again that any behavior that can be done is natural.
Killing someone or a whole town is natural.
Having sex with your neighbors wife is natural.
I find the insurgent to be a backward sort sometimes for her extremely conservative and religiously tainted attitude.
It is always an individual choice what we do .
To turn that into a group think of morality is really very anti human.
This type of thinking is an extension of the religiously impaired. Group morality is religion.

At 7:01 PM, October 26, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

I find the insurgent to be a backward sort sometimes for her extremely conservative and religiously tainted attitude.

This makes me laugh. Admittedly, I am "conservative" in some of my views, but I never thought I would be accused of having a religiously tainted attitude. That's funny since I can't stand religion.

Skip, you are quite a character. What do you do for a living?

At 8:32 AM, October 27, 2006 , Blogger LNaranjoiv said...

Ummm, no. I wouldn't say that.

And FOX got his azz called on, for his doofus attempt at putting a disease up front for a political cause.
Vote DEMO if you want a cure??
DEMO's will find a cure, while Repubs won't??

Come on.........they didn't front Muhammod Ali, cause the DEMO's wanted the ' white boy ' image.

0 = /

get real.

At 1:26 PM, October 27, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Thanks for talking my comment in good stride Insurgent. In the main I very much like the way your mind works , and also think we have a lot in common.
As to what I do , pretty much just goof around. Promote technocracy and my book, play my guitar, go for walks in the woods, search for younger leaders to help with the technocracy movement.
I traveled a lot in the 90`s when it was cheap , and people didn`t hate us as much. As far as a real job , haven`t had one of those for a few years. Rode the stock market stupidity wave , and before it crested and broke , I jumped off.
So for a living I just live and look out the window in the morning and decide what to do. And you.?

At 2:42 PM, October 27, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...

That's pretty cool. I am a lawyer in LA.

At 9:46 PM, October 27, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

That has to be a tough racket.
I always suggest to people that they quit their jobs.
I always congratualate people that do.
Our society is really a tough place to find meaning in now.
It may be a good time to escape from L.A.
I have read most of the books you list in your profile. Some mighty good stuff there.

I thought fogs original post here was pretty good. Ha.

At 7:54 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...


As always a good point of view.

I agree with much of what you say, especially your quote of Consistent destructive scapegoating and excessive intolerance to criticism", but found it odd that you did not list any Democrats on your list. I would think that the "Bell Shaped Curve" applies equally to both sides of the ying and yang when it comes to evil. People like George Soros and others who's main wish is to "control all those who disagree with them."

Evil is where the hate is, and there is plenty on both sides of the "Left and Right." Bill Mahar is so full of hate it is obvious to anyone who can think rationally.

There are truly religions who hate and are evil. The way to spot them is to ask yourself this "Do they believe that the only answer is FORCE?"

While Jews, Muslims, and Christians want to allow others to practice the religion of their choice, the Radical Terrorists want to "FORCE" their view of Islam on the rest of us. That is the best example of evil.

Most Religious people I know believe in the old saying "God will Force no one to heaven."

I don't think having "In God we Trust" on our coins has "Forced" one person to believe in God.

But you would sure think that some people believe it "might." LOL.

Both sides want to destroy our Freedom.

The "Left" wants to destroy it by destroying Economic Freedom thru policies that force Economic Equality at the expense of "Competition" and the "Right" wants to destroy freedom by taking away Civil Liberties in the name of "Saftey."


At 8:15 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Thanks for your pathetic brainwashed rant free agency.
Was it scripted off a compendium of fox news analyses shows.?
I guess you haven`t figured out that Americans live in a brainwashed 1984 society , that is actually run by the corporatacracy , and that the right and left , or divide and conquer, that you mention is only an illusion to keep people from figuring out what is really happening.?
You seem like a typical thoughtless American. Ha Ha .
An almost completely thoughtless person.
Our homeland defense makes the old K.G.B. look friendly and innocent.
Democracy as it is called in America is a scam and falsehood.
We are a valueless society. A money society.
The power possessors just love people like you.
More cannon fodder for their crooked economic systems , and also more people to kill in their money scamming fake wars.
You are a cog.

At 8:35 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...


While I only get insulted when someone I know and respect says unflattering and insulting things about me, and since I don't know you, then I am not insulted. But, I wonder if in person you get along with others that disagree with you, if you insult them?

I would think by my saying that I think both sides are destroying freedom that you would not automatically put me in a box of being on either side? Are you so quick to put people in a box that you hardly have conversed with?

I am more of a Libertarian than anything.

I don't believe in the war on drugs for instance. I think people should be able to do anything as long as it doesn't directly harm others.

So, how does that make me like everyone else that you seem to believe is An almost completely thoughtless person?

Do you think that personal attacks are the answer to convincing people of your point of view?

Being a Libertarian who believes that drugs should be legal puts me in a position of being critized often, so I just smile when people who don't really explore my full beliefs think they have me all figured out in short order.

Ask ii and she will tell you that I am a very interesting and rational thinking person because I am not in the same box as the masses.


At 9:20 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

Actually I think I might "mostly" agree with your statement that Americans live in a brainwashed 1984 society , that is actually run by the corporatacracy , and that the right and left , or divide and conquer, that you mention is only an illusion to keep people from figuring out what is really happening.?

I have said to ii and in some of my recent posts that I think Corporations are part of the real problem and that we should repeal the Corporate entity.

Suprise! I'd be willing to bet that you had me favoring Corporations, didn't you? Admit it!


At 10:25 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Well, you have redeemed yourself a little , but only a little f.a.r.
Ha Ha, I don`t like libertarians at all , but you seem to understand that we live in a political thug scam society. I give you credit for that. ~!~

Libertarians are mostly people that care for nothing but money, and the price system method.
Mostly they want to repeal every law almost in order to have what they consider to be a more free society.
Libertarians are only a sidestep from mainstream Repubs. and Dems. in that they do not really want to change the system, they just want to tinker with it , and mostly keep it the same. When I say the system I mean the price system.
This price system method insures our destruction in a desultory way in the not to distant future.
It is based on expansion.
As a member of the Technocracy movement I encourage you to explore some of our ideas.
You may find them to be interesting and not just fake alternative such as Amy Goodman, Rush Limbaugh, or Al Franken types put out.
In some ways libertarians are the worst of the mainstream political flunkies in that they want to toss out a lot of environmental protections.
Switching to gold is also a dead end.
Its still a price system.

At 10:38 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

The problem with all "solutions" is the idea that we must "distrubute" materialism.

It is the love of materialism that I believe is the root of the problem.

Money is not the root of all evil, it is the LOVE of money that is, and all solutions deal with dividing up the goodies, or in other words, how do we deal with those who are capable of taking care of themselves, but choose to not participate? FORCE them to work?

All people have a giant struggle in their minds, they want two conflicting Identies. One is the Identity of being their own individual person, and the other of wishing all would join them in their worldview. In other words, all people conform to some extent in order to have friends, yet no one wants to be just a "cog" wheather it is in some "new economic system" or the current one.

The Corporations give money to both political parties but the Democrats are able to fool most of their followers into thinking they are against Corporations.

Corporations will deal with the devil if there is a buck in it.


At 11:02 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Intellectual Insurgent said...


I agree with almost all of what you said except - Jews, Muslims, and Christians want to allow others to practice the religion of their choice.

This is quite a broad statement. I am sure there are plenty of religionists who think it's swell that others have their own views, but Christianity and Judaism, in their texts, don't acknowledge the validity of other religions. Islam only acknowledges the validity of Judaism and Christianity, but illustrates a strong disdain for Buddhism and Hinduism.

Indeed, the strong missionary movement in Christianity 100% disproves the idea that "Christians" want to allow others to practice the religion of their choice. Just travel to Central America, South America and Asia and you will see how strongly White Christianity insists that it is right and everyone else is wrong.

With regard to the "terrorists" being evil, you are again painting with a broad brush. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and the so-called "terrorist" groups are as diverse as any other group. Some are legitimate resistance movements while others are just pawns doing the dirty work of the masters. Almost all of Israel's prime ministers are former terrorists, but somehow they are now ok because the system has legitimized them.

I didn't list anyone from the "left" because I don't know much about them. George Soros attracts the ire of the right wing, but I have no idea why. Bill Maher is an ego maniac, but I have never seen him do anything that fits Peck's profile of evil.

Skip -

I still can't understand what the alternative to the price system would be. In any trade, there will always be a valuation, even if I trade two chickens for a bottle of scotch. Even in bartering, pricing (i.e. valuation) still occurs. If there is no valuation, then we are at communism, which sounds good in theory, but will inevitable lead right back to the price system.

Do you think that history is linear or circular?

At 11:04 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...


You said...they want to toss out a lot of environmental protections.

The reason I am not entirely in agreement with all Liberterian views is because I believe that some things done in public, such as destroying the environment, are directly harming people.

Perhaps a "full" Libertarian would think it was O.K. to have sex with their partner on a football field, while I say that any two consenting adults may do anything they wish in private as long as no one else is harmed. Have sex with a Donkey is none of my business, but if it harms someone else, it is not O.K.

If I had enough time I think I could convince any thinking open minded person that "freedom", that is true freedom that does not harm others, is the single most important "idea" that we should defend. As without freedom, your ideas might not be allowed.


At 11:13 AM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...


First Indeed, the strong missionary movement in Christianity 100% disproves the idea that "Christians" want to allow others to practice the religion of their choice.

Just as you pointed out, a broad brush doesn't work. Most Christians "wish" others would accept their view, but the modern day Christian does not in anyway want to "Force" others to accept. Most agree with the "Freedom of Religion" idea in the Constitution.

Next, With regard to the "terrorists" being evil, you are again painting with a broad brush. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and the so-called "terrorist" groups are as diverse as any other group.

I agree, but again I was trying to be specific about those who want to "Force" their religion on others, and was not referring to any other groups.

To me a "freedom fighter", (great choice of words), wants "freedom" and it is obvious those who "blow others up certianly didn't care about their victims freedom.

To me a "terrorist" is someone who wants to destroy people to FORCE others to join their ideology. I don't think the Jews would be doing anything if they were left alone, while the terrorists will attack even Russia who was against the war in Iraq just because they want to force the Russians to conform to their way of life.


At 2:12 PM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Insurgent we get rid of money and switch to energy accounting. That uses ergs, or kilowatts , or Btu`s instead of money.
The amount of energy it takes to create a consumer product would be debited an individuals energy debit card , which would be similar to a bank card.
The energy accounting system makes the resource base level known.
The energy accounting card for the individual is used not so much to restrict them, as to keep an accounting of what is needed.
Sustainable abundance is the goal.

We chose the land area of Canada, U.S. Mexico, and c
Central and the top of S. America as our projected technate area.
The reason is the resource base. This area contains about 52% of all the known usable resources in the world.
The system would be a total nonprofit that would not use money.

This program was thought out from the first think tank ever in America that was made up of my group , out of Columbia University. They published their finding in 1934 , and our group is still promoting this original , and uniquely American idea.
We abandon the idea of a political system and use a meritocracy based system with a vertical alignment business structure minus the money.

As far as history , people are condemned to repeat it, if they don`t learn from it.
There is no right or wrong way to have a society, but there are ways that are more practical and make more sense.
Technocracy is a social proposal that is administered by Science.
Science deals in fact and not belief.
Freedom of , and from belief are assured in a technocracy system . Individual liberty is at the heart of our social proposal.

Free Agency I am not sure where to start with you.
Let me just say that most Christians are expecting to wipe out the Jews as a group in order to make their new Jerusalem.
The idea is that the new Jerusalem will be made of Christians , and if any Jews do happen to survive the apocalypse the Christians are planning, they expect them to convert to Christianity.
Bush has a couple years to perhaps get world war three going , and his cult of born agains, as I said, expect Israel to be wiped out and re occupied by Christians .
I am not making that up , that is their plan.
This is the prophesy of their revelation , and it is connected to the land which they think was promised by their imagined real estate agent, Mr. god. , who according to them promised them the area from the Euphrates to the Nile.
Again I am not making that up it is in their precedent documents, the old and new so called testaments.
You may care to read my book, Beyond the Cloak of Deception . A free download at my site. It also has a copy there of the original technocracy Study course which is our precedent document.

At 3:46 PM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...


Said: Let me just say that most Christians are expecting to wipe out the Jews as a group in order to make their new Jerusalem.

I have been studing Scriptures for over 40 years, I am 63, and I have never seen this philosophy.

All of my study says that Jesus will stand on the Mount of Olives during the battle of Armageddon and he will save the Jews from destruction. The Jews will then recognize him as their Messiah and Jews and Christians will live in harmony from then on.

I have met and talked with many denomonations and they are all under a similar understanding of the "New Jerusalem."

Perhaps you have been studying the Scriptures longer than I have and/or have a better understanding than I do?

I would be most interested in seeing the Context, (Chapter and verses), of your conclusions.


At 6:19 PM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Like any thing connected to religion there are two million ways to look at the philosophy of interpretation Far.
I reference my book above here for you and it gets into my logic of why I interpret this soon to be future in the way I do. If you decide to get a free copy , I would suggest that you read the introduction chapter one , and then skip to the Chapter , I am the Price System.
Then if you think it is interesting you might want to tackle the whole thing.

At 7:01 PM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...

I agree about the different ways of interpretation, but I would like to see the quotes you are interpreting because if 99% see it the way I do and 1% see it the way you do, perhaps you should not be so bold in saying that it is viewed by most your way. No?

I am always interested in reading about new ideas, especially when it comes to Economics as I not only took three terms of it in college, but studied for 8 years on my own as a passion.

I believe there are three major truths in life.

1. Politics - there is a perfect way, we just may not have found it yet.
2. Economics - there is a perfect system, we just may not have found it yet.
3. Religion - There either is a God or there isn't, and both sides must make their choice on faith.

All three areas are connected to "man's inhumanity to man."


At 7:22 PM, October 28, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

There is an old joke about that Far.
Communism is based on mans inhumanity to man, and Capitalism , is just the opposite. Ha.

If you studied Economics as you say I think the chapter I suggested , you will find most interesting .

The subtitle of my book is , Politics, Religion, and Economics in the Price System
How perceptions are controlled and manipulated and why.

I don`t want to get into a tirade here about the documentation you refer too , but I will say that I quote direct passages in the book we are referencing in my book.
My book is meant to have fun with.
Thanks for your open mindedness Far
I am not a believer , but have been interested in the subject as I can see you are interested also.

At 9:48 AM, October 29, 2006 , Blogger chad said...

I'm late to the discussion and long winded as usual, so I decide to steal your text an leave my lengthy repsonse on my blog. I must say though that this was a very provocative topic.


PS: I'm trying to not let residency completely take over my life

At 10:15 AM, October 30, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

FAR - "Most Christians "wish" others would accept their view, but the modern day Christian does not in anyway want to "Force" others to accept."

The problem with Christianity -- and faith in general (i.e. - the belief in things not demonstrable) is that once you give such a system power it is the easiest to corrupt: hence the problems II referred to in Central/South America ... the Inquisition, the burning of witches, etc. etc. etc.

Faith, by definition, is irrational. No one every was persecuted for being to "reasonable" -- but they do get persecuted for being heretics.

At 6:01 PM, October 30, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Well said R.O.R.

At 6:03 PM, October 30, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

I would like to refer people to the top of this post and Capt.fogg`s original comment.
I very much like his take on this post.

At 6:41 AM, October 31, 2006 , Blogger chad said...

You aksed:
Are there not sociopaths, such as Charles Manson, who are evil beyond redemption?

There are individuals who are evil beyond redemption, but their status as evil is not based on their personality, but on their decisions to satisfy the base selfish desires of their personalities.
I'm not sure if Charles Manson is one of these people, because it is impossible to judge whether or not he is evil. Does Charles truly have a sociopathic personality (personality disorder) or is he good-old fashioned crazy (schizophrenics have so many delusions, and hallucinations that it would be hard to judge them as evil, since they are responding to an alternate reality from yours and mine). Should someone who has committed mass-murder be incarcerated? Certainly he should, but should we condemn his as evil? I don't know.
What I think is much more interesting is that there are plenty of people who are beyond redemption not because of their personality, but because of their decisions to do what is evil. Some of these people may be considered solid citizens of society, but if a close examination of their lives is performed, they are motivated by lust, fear, power, and greed. I think these evil people are under the greatest condemnation, because many of them are in positions of religious/moral authority, and they abuse power to serve an agenda not based on love or service of their fellow man. I believe God has some exceptional harsh judgment for those who do evil in the name of the church or religion. As I recall, Jesus often kicked it with "sinners, prostitutes, and tax-collectors", but it was the hypocritical Pharisees and religious leaders that drew his harshest words.


At 7:51 AM, October 31, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Chad, there is no god so don`t trouble your mind about how your Mr.god is planning on punishing people in the after , or present life.

That is a fairy tale meant to frighten children with.

Lust , fear , power, and greed you think must be condemned by your Mr.god character.?
Are you sure you are not just being a control freak , and possibly might be brainwashed also.?

At 9:08 AM, October 31, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

“There are individuals who are evil beyond redemption, but their status as evil is not based on their personality, but on their decisions to satisfy the base selfish desires of their personalities.”

I completely disagree chad.

You seem to completely disassociate “personality” from “decision making” (vis a vi your statement above). Decisions spring from a personality… if the decisions are completely self-centered at the expense of harming others, we call the decisions evil as well as the person making them. We can simply use such objective, scientific reasoning to apply a label like “evil”.

If you cannot “judge” Manson evil or not, then the concept has no meaning. An individual’s actions earn him the label. Those actions are driven by decisions. Again, if the decisions you make show NO concern for the welfare of other human being (or, more generally, living creature) society applies the label evil.

Whether or not there is an underlying psychoses doesn’t invalidate the label: the personality of “Charles Manson” still committed those acts and therefore the “person” Charles Manson is evil.

It doesn’t matter if Hitler was certifiable or not – he was evil. Lets not use political correctness to protect nut-cases.

At 5:02 PM, October 31, 2006 , Blogger chad said...


God’s existence is difficult to prove or disprove. Clearly, I use my understanding of God as a basis for explaining my point of view, but this cannot serve as a legitimate basis for debate between individuals unless we both agree about who, what, and if God is. My words are a mere expression of how I process the ethical and philosophical questions posted above. So to say that my point of view is wrong or illogical because the foundation of my point of view is invalid (God’s existence) is not a very convincing comment unless you take the time to support your statement that God does not exist.

Some might find value in reading my comment (even if they did not believe in God) just to understand how many of their fellow registered voters process things.

If I did not believe in God, I doubt I would waste my time responding to those who did when they invoked God as the reason they felt a certain way. I would recognize that they were hopelessly deluded, and could not be made to see issues clearly since their point-of- view was obscured by the notion that God exists.

I find it interesting that you think it worthwhile to write a comment saying that God does not exist with almost no argument to support such a statement. Do you think such statements might change my point of view? That the mere denial of God’s existence would cause me to think…”Now it’s clear! God does not exist…now I see where I was all wrong”. Or perhaps you were not trying to change my point of view, but you were merely taking the opportunity to take a verbal jab at God’s existence. Maybe you see this as being a useful or enjoyable pastime, and changing my point of view is not you objective. I admit that I am curious what motivated that comment.

Anyway to respond to your last question:
Are you sure you are not just being a control freak , and possibly might be brainwashed also.?.
My answer is: no, I cannot be sure…Can you be?


At 5:35 PM, October 31, 2006 , Blogger chad said...

You may not have gotten my whole point about personality and choice, because my original post was elsewhere. If you don’t have time to read it, I will summarize by saying that personality in an inherent trait based on nature (genetics) and nurture (past experience) and it can predispose someone to evil behavior, but whether that person is evil depends on the choices they make. My personality may predispose me to kill, but if I don’t kill then I am not evil. Conversely, someone with a charitable personality may be evil, if despite their predispositions to be kind and gentle, they still commits acts that inflict suffering upon others. Evil is determined by what a person does, not by what he has a predisposition to do.

Also, rest assured that I think a sociopath like Charles Manson should be incarcerated, because his actions have merited that he is unfit for society. Likewise a genocidal maniac like Hitler must be removed from power. We know their actions were reprehensible, but whether or not these men are truly evil is not knowable unless you know exactly what caused them to act reprehensibly. We can be close to certain that Hitler was evil, but there is always the possibility that he was totally psychotic (which incidentally is not a personality disorder, but is a delusional state). Psychosis does more than predispose you to a certain behavior…it causes or forces behavior. That person is no more evil for their behavior than you are evil for what you do in your dreams while you are asleep.


At 8:34 PM, October 31, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Thanks for being open minded Chad. Yes I can indeed prove that the cruel , nasty , and inhumane middle eastern god does not exist.
I assume that is the one you believe in >?

How can I prove it.? I am a student of history. If you look at the full context of history, it is very apparent that the whole thing was a falsehood.
I don`t want to wreck your fun though and there is no accounting for belief systems.

At 8:58 AM, November 01, 2006 , Blogger Reign of Reason said...

Chad -- I see your distinction.

At 1:17 PM, November 01, 2006 , Blogger Stalin the Shark said...

Might I just note, before I return to the battle against evil (i.e., the republican party) that it is of great amusement to me that the nut who rails against 'the price system' is sitting on his ass at home because he made a killing in the stock market.

Oh, the manifold ironies. Heh.

:-), Stalin the Shark (not evil)

At 6:31 PM, November 01, 2006 , Blogger skip sievert said...

Money is illusory Shark. Whistle blowing is real though. You prefer to be a brainwashed tool for the corporations. I prefer to try to make change that is real. You are a cog in the machine or a soldier for the system.

I encourage you to explore further so that you may become part of the solution and not the problem.
Politics is a dead end.

At 6:57 PM, November 06, 2006 , Blogger Mr. Wilson said...

i need a late pass...and i don't even have time to read through the 52 comments...

rod and i used to debate about evil all of the time. we went through a lot of iterations about what evil was. here are a few key questions i raised...

why are people so quick to state that there are people who are inherently or unredeemably evil, yet we rarely if ever make a definitive statement that there are some who are inherently or unredeemably good?

people arrive at their current moral and ethical perspective as a result of their past lives. the experiences one has had give them a certain range in terms of choosing good vs. evil, within the limits of their experiences. a person from a violent past isn't going to be able to react to things the way a person who raised in a more loving environment can you make statements about whether someone is evil without knowing what they are choosing between?

what is the point of identifying anyone other than one's self as evil anyway? it is meaningless to me whether a thief, or a murderer, or a swindler are evil or not. I am primarily concerned with the course of actions these people take and how to protect myself from them.

evil is an abstraction just like love or fear. they are very hard to define yet from an experiential standpoint we all understand the concepts very well. doesn't what one feels about evil (or love or fear) say more about how they experience evil within themselves? how is it that we think we all capable of experiencing love, joy, and happiness...but evil is only for some people other than ourselves? perhaps our feelings about the evil of others is an acknowledgment about what ultimately lies deeply inside of us.

At 6:58 PM, November 06, 2006 , Blogger Mr. Wilson said...

i am even later than my brother to the fair chad...II was my friend first...

At 10:10 PM, November 06, 2006 , Blogger Denmark Vesey said...

"When we deny the existence of God, we create false Gods instead." - Carl Jung

Sex, Money, and Consumerism are the de facto gods (devils / anti-Christs) of the radical secularism that has infected this country.

It's as if Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple and they spent the past 2,000 years reorganizing their corporate structure and setting up shop over here.

At 5:44 PM, November 07, 2006 , Blogger Free Agency Rules said...


It takes just as much "faith" to not believe in God as it does to believe in him because neither can be proved even though you proport to be able to.

Either God exists or he doesn't and just saying one has proof does not prove it.


It doesn’t matter if Hitler was certifiable or not – he was evil. Lets not use political correctness to protect nut-cases.

I agree completely. There is a reason we have the word "evil." Why have it if it has no meaning.

Next, you said The problem with Christianity -- and faith in general (i.e. - the belief in things not demonstrable) is that once you give such a system power it is the easiest to corrupt: hence the problems II referred to in Central/South America ... the Inquisition, the burning of witches, etc. etc. etc."

Notice that my statement you are commenting on said..."Modern Christianity" and yet you point out practices of Ancient Christianity. And I disagree with the Idea that Christianity "seeks Power" so your statement about "once you give such a system power" is academic if it is not trying to "force" others to join.

Mr Wilson,

To say that people who have no regard for the freedom and the right to live without coersion are merely "insane"....well now, you are just using a word to describe someone we cannot understand how they make decisions. The Russians put the label of "insane" on anyone who disagreed with their worldview, and we must not allow that kind of thinking to creep into our way of life. People are accountable for their actions unless they can be shown to have "physical" or biological defects that are real and not imagined because of them just being different.

You know the old saying, "If a rich person does things that are wierd, they are called "eccentric", while if they are poor, they are called "crazy."


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